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| SFReader Forums > SFReader > Anything Goes! > Internal power/energy is real??? | Forum Quick Jump
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      |  Swashbuckler One-man sword-and-sorcery machine

       Date Joined Mar 2006 Total Posts : 1199 | Posted 5/9/2008 4:03 AM (GMT -4) |   | Just a brief interlude, if I may, to respond to a comment about scientists and their naturalistic reductionist worldview that "won't allow for the possibility of a supernatural explanation."
This is a common misconception. Yes, when doing science, a scientist must stick with natural, measurable things in seeking explanations. It's a necessary component of doing science. You can't possibly do science any other way. If you allow for causes that can't be measured or observed, you allow for EVERYTHING ... and the scientific method falls completely, hopelessly, utterly apart.
That does NOT mean, however, that a scientist automatically refuses to even consider the slightest possibility of a supernatural explanation for a phenomenon. A scientist is just as capable of believing he saw a ghost, or received an ESP communication, or of believing in a Creator, as anyone else. The scientist will not say that such explanations are SCIENTIFICALLY plausible, but he darn well might think the big dark shape he saw in the woods was Bigfoot, or that the noise in the attic was his dead Aunt Bessie. Being a scientist, he naturally will seek natural explanations for such things. If he finds such, being a scientist, he will lean that way. Occam's Razor, you know. Which is more likely, the wind banging a shutter or someone coming back from the dead? Bigfoot, or tired eyes deceiving their owner?
If a scientist finds no natural explanations, however, he will simply say "Science can't explain this." But he might well go right on being convinced his dead Aunt Bessie is making noise in the attic, or the thing in the woods was Bigfoot, while wishing he had some solid evidence to back that up -- or that he could even think of a way to possibly garner such evidence. That's the sticking point with supernatural explanations. By definition, science CAN'T do anything with them. It doesn't necessarily make supernatural explanations WRONG; it simply makes them beyond science. And a scientist who himself has NOT experienced a supernatural something-or-other is completely justified in remaining skeptical. That's particularly true in the realm of ghost stories and Bigfoot sightings. The number of cases that can be shown to have been hoaxes, or to have very simple explanations, makes it very difficult for a scientist to make the leap to a supernatural explanation if he hasn't had such an experience himself. But if he says "ghosts don't exist" or "There is no Bigfoot," he is being a bit arrogant, and will likely realize it and concede that he is being arrogant if pressed. Then he will amend his statement to "There is no scientific evidence for ..." etc. etc. etc.
I interject this because it's a frequent sticking point. People hear a scientist say "there is no evidence for A, B or C" and automatically assume that means the scientist is saying "A, B or C do not exist." Not quite the same thing, really. Scientists who have a strong religious faith, for example, run into that all the time. So ... I thought I'd point out the difference between a priori dismissal and simply recognizing that sometimes, there is no measurable evidence. (Of course, a priori dismissal does happen sometimes, because scientists are human, too. But overall, they actually are a rather open-minded bunch. They are just really persnickety about evidence.)
OK. Carry on. Steve Goble
Visit my blog, Swords Against Boredom, for news on published fiction and upcoming stories. | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Swashbuckler One-man sword-and-sorcery machine

       Date Joined Mar 2006 Total Posts : 1199 | Posted 5/9/2008 4:10 AM (GMT -4) |   | CW: All we can do is measure ANYTHING'S effect on our physical existence. If you can't measure light, by your definition, you can't measure water, either. All we can do is measure water's effect on our physical existence; it fills the bucket or it doesn't, it makes me wet or it doesn't, it quenches my thirst or it doesn't.
I think you are using the term "measure" in some way that either I don't understand, or else that has no practical real-world value.
I can measure light, because I can see it. And I can tell that bulb over there on my left is brighter than the one over here on my right. I can tell when light is there, and I can tell when it goes away. Light is a thing that exists and I know it is there and I can measure it. I don't have to understand what it is made of or what causes it, but I can sure as heck measure it, or show it to someone else, or bend it to my will by flipping a switch or pointing a flashlight.
So, I'm probably missing your point entirely or something, because I can't tell where you're going with this. Steve Goble
Visit my blog, Swords Against Boredom, for news on published fiction and upcoming stories. | | Back to Top | | |
  |  Swashbuckler One-man sword-and-sorcery machine

       Date Joined Mar 2006 Total Posts : 1199 | Posted 5/9/2008 4:13 AM (GMT -4) |   | | | |
  |  Swashbuckler One-man sword-and-sorcery machine

       Date Joined Mar 2006 Total Posts : 1199 | Posted 5/9/2008 4:16 AM (GMT -4) |   | | | |
  |  Swashbuckler One-man sword-and-sorcery machine

       Date Joined Mar 2006 Total Posts : 1199 | Posted 5/9/2008 4:16 AM (GMT -4) |   | | | |
  |  Swashbuckler One-man sword-and-sorcery machine

       Date Joined Mar 2006 Total Posts : 1199 | Posted 5/9/2008 4:18 AM (GMT -4) |   | | | |
 |  Swashbuckler One-man sword-and-sorcery machine

       Date Joined Mar 2006 Total Posts : 1199 | Posted 5/9/2008 4:19 AM (GMT -4) |   | | | |
 |  Swashbuckler One-man sword-and-sorcery machine

       Date Joined Mar 2006 Total Posts : 1199 | Posted 5/9/2008 4:19 AM (GMT -4) |   | | | |
  |  Swashbuckler One-man sword-and-sorcery machine

       Date Joined Mar 2006 Total Posts : 1199 | Posted 5/9/2008 4:21 AM (GMT -4) |   | | | |
 |  Jordan Lapp ppaL nadroJ

       Date Joined Sep 2006 Total Posts : 2480 | Posted 5/9/2008 4:23 AM (GMT -4) |   | | | |
  |  Anthony G Williams Greybeard

       Date Joined Apr 2007 Total Posts : 380 | Posted 5/9/2008 4:44 AM (GMT -4) |   |
Swashbuckler said...Just a brief interlude, if I may, to respond to a comment about scientists and their naturalistic reductionist worldview that "won't allow for the possibility of a supernatural explanation." This is a common misconception. Yes, when doing science, a scientist must stick with natural, measurable things in seeking explanations. It's a necessary component of doing science. You can't possibly do science any other way. If you allow for causes that can't be measured or observed, you allow for EVERYTHING ... and the scientific method falls completely, hopelessly, utterly apart. That does NOT mean, however, that a scientist automatically refuses to even consider the slightest possibility of a supernatural explanation for a phenomenon. A scientist is just as capable of believing he saw a ghost, or received an ESP communication, or of believing in a Creator, as anyone else. The scientist will not say that such explanations are SCIENTIFICALLY plausible, but he darn well might think the big dark shape he saw in the woods was Bigfoot, or that the noise in the attic was his dead Aunt Bessie. Being a scientist, he naturally will seek natural explanations for such things. If he finds such, being a scientist, he will lean that way. Occam's Razor, you know. Which is more likely, the wind banging a shutter or someone coming back from the dead? Bigfoot, or tired eyes deceiving their owner? If a scientist finds no natural explanations, however, he will simply say "Science can't explain this." But he might well go right on being convinced his dead Aunt Bessie is making noise in the attic, or the thing in the woods was Bigfoot, while wishing he had some solid evidence to back that up -- or that he could even think of a way to possibly garner such evidence. That's the sticking point with supernatural explanations. By definition, science CAN'T do anything with them. It doesn't necessarily make supernatural explanations WRONG; it simply makes them beyond science. And a scientist who himself has NOT experienced a supernatural something-or-other is completely justified in remaining skeptical. That's particularly true in the realm of ghost stories and Bigfoot sightings. The number of cases that can be shown to have been hoaxes, or to have very simple explanations, makes it very difficult for a scientist to make the leap to a supernatural explanation if he hasn't had such an experience himself. But if he says "ghosts don't exist" or "There is no Bigfoot," he is being a bit arrogant, and will likely realize it and concede that he is being arrogant if pressed. Then he will amend his statement to "There is no scientific evidence for ..." etc. etc. etc. I interject this because it's a frequent sticking point. People hear a scientist say "there is no evidence for A, B or C" and automatically assume that means the scientist is saying "A, B or C do not exist." Not quite the same thing, really. Scientists who have a strong religious faith, for example, run into that all the time. So ... I thought I'd point out the difference between a priori dismissal and simply recognizing that sometimes, there is no measurable evidence. (Of course, a priori dismissal does happen sometimes, because scientists are human, too. But overall, they actually are a rather open-minded bunch. They are just really persnickety about evidence.) OK. Carry on.
You beat me to it - I was mentally composing just such a response (although not as good) before I read this.
I consider that I have an open mind about such matters, because I am always willing to be convinced if there is adequate evidence (repeatability being the key, as Jordan said). What I won't do is believe in anything which currently seems to be impossible or inexplicable without adequate evidence. But that evidence could, of course, emerge overnight. And if it did, I'd be happy to accept it.
Personally I'd love to believe that the Loch Ness Monster exists. The idea of a prehistoric beast, a left-over from the age of dinosaurs still surviving in the deep lake, is a wonderfully romantic notion. However, apart from the totally inadequate and easily fakable evidence, there is the inconvenient fact that during the last Ice Age, which ended only 10,000 years ago, Loch Ness was filled right to the bottom with solid ice. Which does rather knock the notion on the head.
Another interesting case is that of crop circles, which were very much the fashionable mystery 20 years ago. It was interested enough to buy a book on it and watch various TV programmes. There were two camps of strongly-held opinion; those who insisted it was a natural phenomenon and those who were convinced it was done by alien visitors. I didn't belong to either camp, I was just curious. What really changed matters was when they stopped being simple circles and started forming complex patterns. I well recall one programme when the chief exponent of the natural explanation was tying himself in knots trying to explain how natural phenomena could cause such patterns: it was obvious he was wrong. Shortly afterwards it was of course revealed to be an elaborate hoax. However, there is the fact that records of simple crop circles go back centuries, so I have an open mind about whether there is some very rare natural phenomenon which might occasionally cause those.
Show me the evidence and I will happily believe - but it needs to be solid, objective evidence!
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 |  RoberII Stablehand
        Date Joined May 2008 Total Posts : 17 | Posted 5/9/2008 7:23 AM (GMT -4) |   | You know, being a hypnotist, I have to chime in:
The mind is capable of doing some incredible things. You can make people forget the number six, thus causing them to count to eleven fingers. You can give people hour long orgasms (that one is pretty fun, BTW ;) )
People have been operated with hypnosis as the only anastetic. As such, it relies entirely on the placebo effect - it's real because we think it is real.
There is every reason to believe that acupuncture works the same way. And that the belief in Chi works the same way, too - the belief makes it real.
The mind very much has the ability to tell the body to shut up and sit down. So if the belief in Chi allows you to move faster or hit harder, there is nothing supernatural about that. | | Back to Top | | |
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