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Anthony G Williams
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   Posted 4/27/2008 5:22 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

A valuable summary in the New Scientist magazine (19 April issue) correcting some common misconceptions about evolution. This article, plus more, is included on their website here: http://www.newscientist.com/channel/life/dn13620-evolution-24-myths-and-misconceptions.html and all SF writers should study it in order to avoid errors (possibly I was a bit ambitious with the marsupial saurians in 'Scales'…)

 

A very brief summary of some examples of misconceptions:

 

Everything is an adaptation: it isn't true that everything has a purpose, some features of life are just accidental hold-overs from earlier developments, such as the appendix and the male nipple.

 

Evolution can't be disproved: in theory it could be, but all of the evidence collected so far supports it, and no evidence has been found to disprove it.

 

Evolution is limitlessly creative: there are limits (at least on Earth) to what has been, and probably can be, developed. Every intermediate stage needs to have had some survival benefit (e.g. primitive forms of eye are still better than nothing in detecting objects).

 

Natural selection leads to ever greater complexity: it can actually lead to greater simplicity since unnecessary features frequently disappear (e.g. eyeless cave fish).

 

Evolution produces perfection: "you don't have to be perfectly adapted to survive, you just have to be as well adapted as your competitors". Examples of inefficiencies in human beings are the eyes (birds have much superior vision), the lungs (much of their capacity is wasted because of the two-way air-flow; birds have a much more efficient one-way flow) and so on.

 

Natural selection is the only means of evolution: random genetic drift has a great influence, with chance often deciding which mutations survive and which don't.

 

It doesn't matter if people don't grasp evolution: our civilisation is facing many challenges which need some understanding of how science works to appreciate, and make sensible judgements about. "Any modern society which bases major decisions on superstition rather than reality is heading for disaster". Which makes it rather worrying that in a recent survey, when asked "Human beings, as we know them, developed from earlier species of animals: true or false?", only 40% of US citizens polled "true", 39% "false" and 21% "not sure". In contrast the "true" response from most western European countries and lace>Japan lace> was around 75%.

 

Comment: among those not believing in evolution (according to their public statements) were several of the initial candidates for the nomination for the Presidency of the USA ; a staggering admission of scientific illiteracy, in the same league as admitting that they couldn't read or write. Let's hope that the most powerful and influential nation on Earth ends up with a leader who has a much better grasp of scientific arguments than the present incumbent.

 

(an extract from my SFF blog)

 

 


Tony Williams
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Firlefanz
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   Posted 4/27/2008 8:42 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Here's a clickable link:

Evolution: 24 myths and misconceptions

Thanks for the heads-up, Tony! :-)


- Call me Firle.

Hannah Steenbock

Mystical Adventures
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"Something New Under the Sun" in - Antipodean SF, Issue 119, Story 06
"Minkus, the Masterful Magic-Mender" in - AlienSkin Magazine, Featured Fiction
"Der Weg nach Eridani" in Earth Rocks 3/2007 (pdf)
"Die arische Frau" in Pandaimonion - Die Formel des Lebens

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Nicholas
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   Posted 4/27/2008 3:02 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Anthony, some good points raised.

I'm one of the 40% of Americans who does believe in evolution (my goodness that percentage seems low! Frightening: are we really a "Huckabee" nation?); however, there is one issue raised by evolution I've never seen adequately answered. Certain complex systems, such as the one bees have to gather pollen and convert it to honey, are made up of various components that all have to work in perfect harmony to be of use. Which would seem to suggest that either the various components of the system would have had to develop all at once together, or else separate components would have had to develop over time, during which time they would serve no purpose until all the other components came "on line." This, it seems to me, is where theistic evolutionists or "intelligent designers" still have soom room to argue: namely, suggesting that there is a purposeful intelligence behind the sweep of evolution, working toward some goal rather than being a random confluence of events. Or perhaps at various stages of evolution a giant black obelisk appeared.  ;-) I'm curious what your take is on that?



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Frank
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   Posted 4/27/2008 4:25 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The idea that any complex system or organ (Creationists usually focus on the human brain or the eye) could not possibly have evolved "from nothing" is a lazy way of refuting the fact of evolution, for whatever reason the refuter is unaccepting of the evidence. What such refuters fail to take into account is the vast length of time during which the system or organ in question has had to develop and "come together".

In the case of earth, we're talking about at least three and one half billion years that life has been evolving, and probably longer. Put another way, that's over 150 million human generations, or in the case of a honey bee, with a lifespan of perhaps one summer, billions of generations. That's a whole lot of possible opportunities for both genetic mutation and natural selection to do their work.

Modern bees evolved from several earlier species of bees, which in turn evolved from other insects, some of which existed in hives while others did not. What appears to us today as multiple inter-dependant factors in the functioning of a bee hive could easily have been accidentally and randomly thrown together several times and in several ways over millions of years until they "arrived" at the current permutation. The idea is borrowed from a mathematician's approach to infinity: given enough time, anything that can happen, will happen...
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Bill Ward
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   Posted 4/27/2008 4:39 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I think if you dig around Nicholas you'll find a lot about the evolution of complex systems, I'm sure Dawkins has addressed it in a few of his books (Mount Improbable perhaps? It's been a while since I've read them).

I'm not sure what specific aspect of pollen gathering you're thinking off, but I doubt any serious scientist would regard that model (or any) as irreducibly complex. Grabbing an example which may not be what you are thinking of, if it is true that flower species X and bee species Y cannot function without one another, you'll find that at one time they could, but both became specialized over time to take advantage of the efficiency of their relationship in a process of tandem evolution (flower X's shape changes to take advantage of bee Y's pollination, bee Y changes to take advantage of flower X's success, etc.). I think complex systems are often a case of a joining of useful simple systems with the 'supports'
knocked away, ie. some of the older intermediately or tangentially useful characteristics of simple systems disappear when they are no-longer beneficial, so in the end a complex system exists without the obvious connections between its various subsets of behaviors.


billwardwriter.com

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von Darkmoor
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   Posted 4/27/2008 5:10 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

<mini intrusion - please forgive>

WOW! Simply by doing a check on Bill Ward's name to see when he'd last been on the forum (since I'd felt he and I hadn't communicated in a while), I find his post here and decide to give him a hard time about "digging around Nicholas" devil So I come to this thread (which otherwise wouldn't have interested me in a million ;-) years) and lo and behold! find Frank - who definitely hasn't communicated with me in a looooong while!  So I decided to wave at Frank - Hi Frank hop !

<intrusion over, you may now proceed with your previously scheduled blathering>

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Bill Ward
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   Posted 4/27/2008 5:29 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
lol, it is amazing what you'll find when you dig around Nicholas.


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Anthony G Williams
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   Posted 4/27/2008 9:03 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Nicholas said...

 Certain complex systems, such as the one bees have to gather pollen and convert it to honey, are made up of various components that all have to work in perfect harmony to be of use. Which would seem to suggest that either the various components of the system would have had to develop all at once together, or else separate components would have had to develop over time, during which time they would serve no purpose until all the other components came "on line." This, it seems to me, is where theistic evolutionists or "intelligent designers" still have soom room to argue: namely, suggesting that there is a purposeful intelligence behind the sweep of evolution, working toward some goal rather than being a random confluence of events. Or perhaps at various stages of evolution a giant black obelisk appeared.  :wink: I'm curious what your take is on that?

 

If you follow the link which Firle provided, you will find a number of brief articles listed there which address this issue.

Suffice it to say that critics of evolution have put a lot of effort into finding examples of characteristics which could not have evolved, but have failed so far.


Tony Williams
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Nicholas
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   Posted 4/28/2008 1:24 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

You must be careful when you dig around Nicholas, though--they still haven't located the bones of Jimmy Hoffa, have they...

Thanks for the further info, Frank, Bill, and Anthony. The links provided by Firle give access to more fleshed-out details and examples, but I think your summary, Mr. Ward, was succinct and enlightening. I like the description of the "supports knocked away."

I now think the argument can be made that evolution is a self-contained system that does not require outside manipulation; it is self-sufficient to explain all the diversity of life.

I do, however, still hold out for a Prime Mover. Evolution explains the development and progression of life, but does not answer the Big Question of why there is such a thing as Life in the first place. However, as any good scientist will tell you, such a question is really outside science's purview: such questions fall into the realms of Philosophy and Theology. And that would be a whole different topic...

 

 
 

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Frank
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   Posted 4/28/2008 1:53 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hi right back Jason! Long time no talk, indeed... I actually have been sneaking around here for a couple weeks now but you didn't notice until today.

Concerning Nic's Prime Mover search:

Some scientists argue that life, at least simple microbial life, may be inevitable in our universe. Their reasoning is based on the fact that it doesn't take long, by cosmic standards, for the precursors to organic chemistry to happen, given even the slightest opportunities to do so, even in places where evolution into more complex forms doesn't stand a chance, like inside comets. Or take Titan for example: a whole world positively brimming with hydrocarbons in a place cold enough to make methane behave like water does on earth, and that's just within our own solar system. Imagine the possibilities when you consider whole galaxies...

The point is self-replicating molecules may be common in the universe, arising anywhere nature randomly provides them with a solution to be suspended in. That doesn't mean, however, that they get very far up the ladder. Evolution as we understand it still needs millions of years in a relatively stable environment to do its thing. But if even comets can support the beginnings of organic chemistry inside them, then simple life may exist on literally billions and billions of planets. You could say that it seems like the universe wants to go in this direction, that indeed it may not be able to avoid it, but that would be thinking like a Creationist...
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Nicholas
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   Posted 4/28/2008 4:15 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Frank, I have no problem with most of what you posted, though I do take issue with the very last statement. To be precise, thinking like a Creationist is to think that a specific Judaical, patriarchal god created the world in six literal, twenty-four-hour days.

"You could say that it seems like the universe wants to go in this direction, that indeed it may not be able to avoid it": one could more accurately say that this would be thinking like a Platonist. It is not far from what Einstein intimated, as have many other intelligent people throughout history.

What is so surprising to many, what is essentially the great question at the heart of the universe, is how life violates the basic Law of Entropy: things tend to break down and move from order to chaos. The fact that we are using our complex, highly evolved brains to type these posts to each other right now defies the Law of Entropy. Some of us regard this with awe and wonder.



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Bill Ward
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   Posted 4/28/2008 7:23 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
And here I thought the internet was proof of the law of entropy. ;)


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Swashbuckler
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   Posted 4/29/2008 12:35 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Nicholas: One day, our sun will go nova or cool off significantly, and all life in our solar systen will die out -- and entropy will be served. When you think on a cosmic timesclae, perhaps we're a mere blip against the tide, not a defiance of entropy.


Steve Goble

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Nathan Jerpe
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   Posted 4/30/2008 9:31 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Nicholas said...

What is so surprising to many, what is essentially the great question at the heart of the universe, is how life violates the basic Law of Entropy: things tend to break down and move from order to chaos. The fact that we are using our complex, highly evolved brains to type these posts to each other right now defies the Law of Entropy. Some of us regard this with awe and wonder.

Hmmm...depends on how you look at it, no?
 
From your point-of-view, these posts appear to tend towards order because they have meaning.
 
But entropy doesn't care about the meaning of the words or the fact that you understand them. All it sees is a vast electrical grid, electrons shooting out of your network card and mine and a billion others, down the routers and through the switches, spraying waves into the air and causing oscillations down transatlantic cables. And via engineering our equipment makes *just* enough sense of it all to deduce you wanted to tell me that you were lmaorofl.
 
Now compare this to the act of sending me a postcard twenty years ago. Which one tends toward more disorder?
 
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Nicholas
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   Posted 5/1/2008 3:58 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Some of the posts around here could serve as proof that if there is a God, It is insane! freaked devil

No, I think I was just trying to get at what Einstein expressed better:

"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious.
It is the source of all true art and all science.  He to whom
this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder
and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed."


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MysticWino
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   Posted 5/1/2008 4:36 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Entropy is a dated and disproved idea. It is no longer workable; i.e., it is NONsense.


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Jordan Lapp
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   Posted 5/5/2008 6:29 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'd be interested in seeing what you mean, David.

As far as I'm aware "entropy" as a concept has never been disproved and actually sits at the heart of much of our most basic physics. If there's been a new development there, I'd love a link.


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Jaqhama
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   Posted 5/6/2008 6:33 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'm all for the evolution theory...but has anyone found a difinitive, undeniable link that the human species evolved from some sort of primate?

I mean a 'cannot be disproved, this primate was what would become a human male/female" ???

I don't mean...we assume that this primate is where humans evolved from.


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Anthony G Williams
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   Posted 5/6/2008 11:34 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Well, humans and chimpanzees share 98% of their DNA, which should provide a clue.
 
There are many fragmentary remains of early humans which have increasingly ape-like characteristics as you go back in time. The currently accepted date for the last common ancestor of modern apes and humans is around 7 million years ago. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_human_evolution
 
 


Tony Williams
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SFF Blog: http://sciencefictionfantasy.blogspot.com/


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Jordan Lapp
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   Posted 5/6/2008 1:11 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Yes, Jaqhama, there's a pretty impressive fossil record going back more than 7 million years.


Jordan Lapp
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Swashbuckler
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   Posted 5/6/2008 1:32 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jaqhama: The case for evolution doesn't really hang on one piece of "smoking gun" evidence; it hangs on tons and tons and tons of interlocking bits of evidence taken as a whole.

And, if one accepts that evolution happens, one has to accept it happened to humans to, or else explain why evolution applies to every other lifeform on the planet but not to us.


Steve Goble

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MysticWino
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   Posted 5/6/2008 5:33 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

It's not so much that it's been disproved as it has been proven to be inaccurate. The definitions of entropy have altered significantly over the years.

It's biggest hurdle comes from particle physics. If entropy, as generally understood, were accurate, then destroying milimicro particles in particle accelerators would result in almost no mass and certainly no discernable, or at least far simpler, particles of mass. Instead the parts recombine to form other particles, often of higher complexity. Entropy should ensure that there is merely energy dissipating throughout the tube of the accelerator, and yet the mass and energy do not move toward equalization - they clump.

Mathematically, entropy is a stand-in guess that means nothing in reality.

As far as cosmology, entropy does not apply because there is no observable limit to the universe; indeed, there is only evidence that it is expanding. Meanwhile, more matter and energy keeps showing up that has no scientific explanation.

As far as entropy being at the heart of physics . . . it is part of the second law of thermodynamics, which is a theory that suffered quite a bit from Einstein's work as well as that of a great many others throughout the 20th century.

Jordan Lapp said...
I'd be interested in seeing what you mean, David.

As far as I'm aware "entropy" as a concept has never been disproved and actually sits at the heart of much of our most basic physics. If there's been a new development there, I'd love a link.


Read me soon in The Return of the Sword!
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Jordan Lapp
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   Posted 5/6/2008 5:40 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.