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tchernabyelo
Acolyte
      
Date Joined Oct 2006
Total Posts : 409
| Posted 4/3/2008 9:30 AM (GMT -4) |   |
Jordan Lapp said...
erazmus said...
Thus religion gets a bum rap in the media.
And other groups get an unearned benifit, appearing more intelligent as a whole than they really are. Congressppeople come to mind . . .
Mike True. But I long for a charismatic religious leader who is not also an idiot to step forward. Pope John Paul II was that man. I really miss him.
Um, can you confirm that that's the same JPII who created more new saints than the previous 500 years' worth of popes?
As for the other point made (17.4% of the world's population supposedly being Catholic) - I'm not remotely surprised there aren't more Catholics on here, just as I'm not surprised there aren't more Hindus or Buddhists or Muslims. We may be diverse in some regards, but we still fall into a pretty narrow subset of the global population.
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"The Man Who Was Never Afraid" - Abyss and Apex #20
"At Blue Crane Falls" - Abyss and Apex #25 "Where No Wind Blows" - Staffs & Starships #2
"What The Sea Refuses" - Black Gate (forthcoming)
"What The Heart Bears" - Black Gate (forthcoming)
"Above The Clouds" - Paper Blossoms, Sharpened Steel (forthcoming)
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"Three Out Of Four" - Sorcerous Signals Feb-Apr 08
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"When Winter Came" - ASIM #32
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RHFay
Sage
Date Joined Nov 2007
Total Posts : 1549
| Posted 4/3/2008 11:31 AM (GMT -4) | |
tchernabyelo said...
Jordan Lapp said...
erazmus said...
Thus religion gets a bum rap in the media.
And other groups get an unearned benifit, appearing more intelligent as a whole than they really are. Congressppeople come to mind . . .
Mike True. But I long for a charismatic religious leader who is not also an idiot to step forward. Pope John Paul II was that man. I really miss him.
Um, can you confirm that that's the same JPII who created more new saints than the previous 500 years' worth of popes?
As for the other point made (17.4% of the world's population supposedly being Catholic) - I'm not remotely surprised there aren't more Catholics on here, just as I'm not surprised there aren't more Hindus or Buddhists or Muslims. We may be diverse in some regards, but we still fall into a pretty narrow subset of the global population.
A belief in sainthood, the belief that God can work miracles through certain holy individuals, is one of the things that sort of makes Catholics Catholic. I see no real problem with Pope John Paul II recognizing people's good works, and possible "miracles", through sainthood (the process of "creating" saints involves a lot more than just the pope, by the way).
I'm not sure I completely agree with the implication that the "creation" of saints is some how indicative of idiocy. There are plenty of historic scholars who believed in things that we know now are untrue, but I wouldn't call them idiots.
I don't think anyone would argue that Aristotle was lacking in intelligence, but many of his views and conclusions were clearly flawed, especially his geocentric cosmology. Still, just because we now don't agree with some of Artistotle's views and conclusions, I don't think we can argue he was unintelligent because of it.
This is one of the things that really annoys me with today's "modern" society. Certain "scientific" types automatically equate a belief in some sort of religion (or anything paranormal, for that matter) as being unintelligent. I have a scientific background, I have scientific training, I used to work in the science field, and I don't think I'm in any way an idiot (graduated summa cum laude with a B.S. in Biology, member of Phi Beta Kappa) but I do believe in something beyond what current science can explain, or even recognise. I've seen and felt too many strange things, observed too many weird happenings (and I am supposed to be something of a "trained observer"), that I cannot deny the existence of "something else". And since I truly believe that I have experience both good and evil as forces beyond the actions of men, it has reinforced my religious beliefs.
Another point - I don't necessarily agree with a literal interpretation of the Bible, but I certainly don't think those on this board that do hold that belief are idiots because of it. Having actually dealt with some rather unintelligent types in my day, I would say that the people on this board are probably of mostly above-average intelligence. Certainly the simple act of reading and writing puts them mentally above some people I know.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
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RHFay
Sage
Date Joined Nov 2007
Total Posts : 1549
| Posted 4/3/2008 12:25 PM (GMT -4) | |
nathan said...Somewhere along the thread life the whole tenor of the posts changed. Curious.
I think it's hard to discuss religion without having emotions get involved. How does the old saying go? Two things you never want to discuss with people are religion and politics.
Me, I think intelligent people can discuss religion intelligently as long a certain level of respect for the beliefs of others is maintained.
To get back to the idea of faith - for the faithful, faith assumes a willingness to believe without prove positive, something completely contrary to the scientific method. The whole concept of "faith" is contrary to the concept of "science". That's why it is so hard to reconcile "faith" with "science", and "belief" often becomes a matter of one or the other.
Personally, I'll take a bit of both, thank you very much. But then again, I'm strange.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
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Lyn
Adopt
Date Joined Sep 2007
Total Posts : 1278
| Posted 4/3/2008 1:24 PM (GMT -4) | | To be honest, Gustavo, I've been hesitant to post here because I felt I did get blasted awhile back (in a different but faith-related thread). But I agree that overall we've not succumbed to the flame wars that sometimes occur on other boards, so that's good - even if the tenor of this thread did change with some mention of a religio-gay gene, lol.
So then, back to Nathan's original request. He said he was "curious as to what people’s [religious] experiences are and if they’re willing to share--not in debate...." If that is still what is being sought here, I can do that. 
Born and raised a (central valley California) Baptist (American Baptist, a bit different kind of brand - often classified mainline as opposed to fundamentalist) I grew up in the fading 'church-centric' society of the 1960s and 70s, where Sunday Night BYF (Baptist Youth Fellowship) was slowly being replaced by sports and other events as the only game in town for junior and senior high school students. I probably lived a fairly sheltered life - as most other band nerd, swim team, good grade, Monty Python loving, non-dating, church-going types did. But it was a great era to be a kid. All the while I was fairly strong and outspoken in my faith (which many thought had to do with 'dos and don'ts' so that other kids would purposely avoid or purposely utilize foul language in my presence, lol).
Took that trajectory into college and attended Wheaton College outside of Chicago. A private, liberal arts Christian school, Wheaton is a mecca for evangelicalism (in the non-political sense) and committed to the integration of faith and reason. (Thus my position - which evidently is still misunderstood - that 'faith' has its 'reasons' and is not a 'blind leap' of irrationality.) Graduated with a BA in Communications and Bible. Went to seminary in Philadelphia (Eastern Baptist) and graduated with a Masters of Divinity (MDiv) with a strong foundation of theology, biblical studies, and pastoral ministry.
Served as a pastor of an American Baptist (fyi update: our denomination is called ABC-USA) church in western PA for 7 years and also served on staff at a church for an additional 5 years. Still a baptist, I'm currently active teaching Sunday school, preaching on occasion, writing, and enjoying my family, hobbies, and life in general. It's still a great era to be a kid - or an adult with a kid's heart!
So that's a bit of my background - what are my 'religious' experiences and personal beliefs? Well, will have to give that some thought and may post again. But, Nathan, this should be enough for now to let you "know more about the people [you] post with." Thanks for asking. It's been interesting reading the context of all you other readers/writers.
Lyn from Residential Aliens
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nathan
Sage
Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 2111
| Posted 4/3/2008 1:50 PM (GMT -4) | | Thanks for posting, I appreciate it. And thanks telling me it's called "American" baptist. For some reason I was always using "modern baptist" to seperate it out from Southern and Missionary brands.
The board seems a snapshot of American life to me, or what my concept of it is, with how the % of faith experiences shake out and the way people choose to frame their talk about faith shaking out as what I subjectively see as a national norm.
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"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages." | | Back to Top | | |
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MichaelEhart
Sage
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 2314
| Posted 4/3/2008 2:14 PM (GMT -4) | | Heh. You know, Lyn, at cons I often can say with confidence that I am the only person in the room who went to seminary--- but on this board there are several--- you, Bill Snodgrass and some others who have mentioned going.
And yes, it was a Baptist seminary :)
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H.P. Lovesauce
Necronomicondiment
Date Joined Jul 2007
Total Posts : 573
| Posted 4/3/2008 2:28 PM (GMT -4) | | I still can't get past the biblical literalism thing. Never will.
I was raised--or rather baptised and given a spotty Sunday school education until I dug in my heels and refused to go--in a very liberal Methodist denomination in Canada. My upbringing wasn't strict, either, so I don't have a solid reason for my antagonism toward Christianity.
Still and all, it's high in the background count of our culture, so there's no sense avoiding Christianity if one is interested in the supranatural element of this world. I think a strong skein running through my adult life has been the construction of a model of how the spiritual universe works. It's gone through quite a few revisions. :) | | Back to Top | | |
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Gustavo
Sage
Date Joined Aug 2007
Total Posts : 1132
| Posted 4/3/2008 2:51 PM (GMT -4) | |
Lyn said...
To be honest, Gustavo, I've been hesitant to post here because I felt I did get blasted awhile back (in a different but faith-related thread). But I agree that overall we've not succumbed to the flame wars that sometimes occur on other boards, so that's good - even if the tenor of this thread did change with some mention of a religio-gay gene, lol.
Yeah, I saw a couple of heated threads a while back (which were killed and, fittingly, resurrected). Maybe what was missing was this thread so that everyone could get a handle of everyone else's background in order to understand how much emotion would be involved in each person's response, and where the line might need to be drawn...
Now we've got it.
And while I doubt that any two of us will ever agree on the science vs. faith issues we've raised here (hey, I've yet to find a position that clicks exactly with mine, and I doubt anyone else has either!), we can, at least understand where the other person comes from, and respect the person behind it while disagreeing violently with their viewpoint.
And, Lovesauce, I have the same difficulty in understanding the literalists... But I won't let that get in the way of enjoying a good argument, as long as it remains civilized!
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Anthony G Williams
Greybeard
Date Joined Apr 2007
Total Posts : 395
| Posted 4/3/2008 2:59 PM (GMT -4) | |
RHFay said...
This is one of the things that really annoys me with today's "modern" society. Certain "scientific" types automatically equate a belief in some sort of religion (or anything paranormal, for that matter) as being unintelligent.
[snip]
Another point - I don't necessarily agree with a literal interpretation of the Bible, but I certainly don't think those on this board that do hold that belief are idiots because of it. Having actually dealt with some rather unintelligent types in my day, I would say that the people on this board are probably of mostly above-average intelligence. Certainly the simple act of reading and writing puts them mentally above some people I know.
Many highly intelligent people have been deeply religious, and not just in the distant past when scientific knowledge was weak, but up to the present. Jesuits have always been famous for their sharp intelligence, as I understand it.
However, there are certain forms of belief which I think must nowadays require intelligent believers to shut down their critical faculties in order to accept. A literal interpretation of the Bible is in my opinion one of these forms. Apart from the internal contradictions between the Old and New Testaments (which are effectively describing two different gods, with two different religions - IIRC there was a heresy to that effect..), there is also the question of the vast wealth of evidence across many scientific disciplines concerning the great age and slow development of life, the universe and all that. If it were literally true that the Earth was created 6,000 years ago, there would be two implications of that: it would show that God had a rather warped sense of humour, to so mislead his followers by providing so much contrary evidence; and it would completely destroy the entire basis of scientific thought. Which would be more than a little odd, since (unlike for religion) we have ample, continuing, objective and testable evidence that the scientific method actually works.
How would you feel if a religious cult in the Western world decided that the Word of God was too holy to be written down but must only be passed on orally (with apologies if there has actually been such a cult...it wouldn't surprise me); that by extension reading and writing are sinful; and that all children should therefore be brought up illiterate? I suspect that most on this board would regard that as a form of child abuse and would approve making it illegal. But as far as I'm concerned, creationism is scientific illiteracy, and those who teach it to their children as fact are equally guilty of doing their children, and society as a whole, a grave disservice.
Humanity has spent millennia gradually extending knowledge and understanding of life, the universe etc, through the power of human intellect. It is that intellect which most clearly distinguishes our capabilities from those of the more intelligent animals. To deny the results of those efforts by believing something which is as directly contrary to the results of the application of that intellect as creationism is, IMO, a denial of the human intellect. That's why I get so exercised about it.
End of rant, put away soapbox etc...
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nathan
Sage
Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 2111
| Posted 4/3/2008 3:15 PM (GMT -4) | | |
Tony its not that you're wrong, per se that often leaves me scratching my head, lol.
It's that it seems that if you were in shrink's office and they were doing a word association set with you I think (from meta-thread reading) your's would look like this:
Shrink: faith.
T: Kansas school board.
Shrink: Relgion.
T: non-rational creationist plus the Kansas school board.
Shrink: spirituality.
T: 6 thousand year old earth. Kansas school board.
Shrink: belief in something larger than humanity.
T: those bastards are out to get me with their voodoo superstition. And the Kansas school board.
Shrink: You seem to have some deep rooted issues with faith.
T: No, no, no. I respect people's right to faith. You're misunderstanding me.
I'm just teasing and I am taking this impression from all the threads dealing with faith (on one level or another) I've seen you start or post in. And I wont touch Lovesauce even teasing.
Your boogeyman are not that prevelant. They're not that powerful. They can't hurt you. And maybe the link between people of faith and a 6 thousand year old earth isn't as objectively strong as it subjectively strong in your touchstone frame of reference--as it appears when you post.
If you'll excuse me I have to go write a check to the ID Instititue of redneck voodoo. 
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"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages." | | Back to Top | | |
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nathan
Sage
Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 2111
| Posted 4/3/2008 3:33 PM (GMT -4) | |
Jordan Lapp said...
I, too, am outside of the US, and I see the 26 million dollar creation "museum", and text books being altered in Texas, Kansas, and other states. It sure seems to me like science is under attack in the US. Ya if that's your impression (and I'm not arguing against it) then I think from where I sit your way off base and maybe a little paranoid. From where I sit I think instances like THIS are much more the norm.
And I'm not trying to convince you that you're wrong and I'm right. Not even a little bit. I'm just saying it's funny we view the Truth On The Ground so differently. I think there is a massive campagin better funded and with more media friendly outlets to promote irreligion over religion.
I think it an interesting snapshot of something--but not being an anthro guy I don't know what, lol.
VIEW IMAGE"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages." | | Back to Top | | |
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nathan
Sage
Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 2111
| Posted 4/3/2008 3:37 PM (GMT -4) | |
Jordan Lapp said...
If you take this thread as a representation of the US population, there' s, what, 3, 4 literalists out of the 10 or so Americans on the thread. More maybe? Less actually. Because if you take the "denominations" of the literalists and extrapolate that out across the sect-size I think it would be a huge inversion. That is the number of people in say the prostenant movement is large. The number of protestants who view Young Earth is very small. Young Earth people (like seminary attendees it seems) seem over represented in my experience in this snapshot.
VIEW IMAGE
"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages." | | Back to Top | | |
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Anthony G Williams
Greybeard
Date Joined Apr 2007
Total Posts : 395
| Posted 4/3/2008 3:38 PM (GMT -4) | |
nathan said...
Tony its not that you're wrong, per se that often leaves me scratching my head, lol.
It's that it seems that if you were in shrink's office and they were doing a word association set with you I think (from meta-thread reading) your's would look like this:
Shrink: faith.
T: Kansas school board.
Shrink: Relgion.
T: non-rational creationist plus the Kansas school board.
Shrink: spirituality.
T: 6 thousand year old earth. Kansas school board.
Shrink: belief in something larger than humanity.
T: those bastards are out to get me with their voodoo superstition. And the Kansas school board.
Shrink: You seem to have some deep rooted issues with faith.
T: No, no, no. I respect people's right to faith. You're misunderstanding me.
I'm just teasing and I am taking this impression from all the threads dealing with faith (on one level or another) I've seen you start or post in. And I wont touch Lovesauce even teasing.
Your boogeyman are not that prevelant. They're not that powerful. They can't hurt you. And maybe the link between people of faith and a 6 thousand year old earth isn't as objectively strong as it subjectively strong in your touchstone frame of reference--as it appears when you post.
If you'll excuse me I have to go write a check to the ID Instititue of redneck voodoo.
Nathan, that is not fair. If you look at my posts (including the last one) you will see that I have always carefully distinguished between different kinds of religious belief, and made it clear that my criticisms are restricted to those which contradict known science.
As far as the prevalence of creationism in the USA is concerned, the last poll result I read about evolution s | |
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