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cussedness
Adept



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   Posted 5/28/2007 7:26 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I have a new editor. however, she had one compliant that I was not certain about. So I thought I'd ask you guys out there.

My new editor says that the young males in my most recent novel think about sex too much. I was always under the impression that young guys, in this case between the ages of 16 and 21, spent a lot of time thinking about sex and chasing girls. I'm not presenting them in a negative light when I do it, but still...

Is that true or am I stereotyping them?


Janrae Frank
I have no skeletons in my closet, they are all hanging from the yardarm.

Once there were three brothers, Brandrahoon the vampire, Isranon called the Dawnhand, speaker to spirits, and Waejonan the Accursed, first of sa’necari. Isranon defied his brothers and was destroyed, his descendants forced into the darkness.

Blood Rites
www.fictionwise.com/ebooks/eBook29989.htm
website
www.janraefrank.com
Darkzone
www.janraefrank.com/Vanilla.1.0.1/

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crystalwizard
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   Posted 5/28/2007 7:34 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
cussedness said...
I have a new editor. however, she had one compliant that I was not certain about. So I thought I'd ask you guys out there.

My new editor says that the young males in my most recent novel think about sex too much. I was always under the impression that young guys, in this case between the ages of 16 and 21, spent a lot of time thinking about sex and chasing girls. I'm not presenting them in a negative light when I do it, but still...

Is that true or am I stereotyping them?


I know guys that seem to see sex in everything and I know guys of the same age that don't have a clue and don't want one.

It really depends as far as my experience goes, on the individual personality. It's not you that's sterotyping them, it's TV that's sterotyped them already.
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von Darkmoor
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   Posted 5/28/2007 11:02 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Well, in all the environments I've been a member of - high school, college, warehouse, military and law enforcement - sex is the number one theme. Seeing as I've been male through all of those and 16-21 through four of them, it seems pretty reasonable to me to make your claim. Personally, as sex is used more and more to buy and sell and trade and impress and impose and undermine and intimidate and demand and even impersonate, I would think it will only become more consistent and begin at an earlier age.


~~~~~~~~~~
Jason M. Waltz
Fantasy Editor Staffs & Starships Magazine
~~~~~~~~~~
Ever waltz with the Devil? Or devil with a Waltz? Visit von Darkmoor's thoughts to find out (and read a review or two).

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darkbow
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   Posted 5/29/2007 1:12 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'll have to go along with Jason on this one, especially in college.


www.tyjohnston.blogspot.com
http://swordofbayne.blogspot.com/
www.thereddoorconcierge.blogspot.com
www.thereddoorconcierge.com

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cussedness
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   Posted 5/29/2007 1:33 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks guys. I appreciate the feedback.


Janrae Frank
I have no skeletons in my closet, they are all hanging from the yardarm.

Once there were three brothers, Brandrahoon the vampire, Isranon called the Dawnhand, speaker to spirits, and Waejonan the Accursed, first of sa’necari. Isranon defied his brothers and was destroyed, his descendants forced into the darkness.

Blood Rites
www.fictionwise.com/ebooks/eBook29989.htm
website
www.janraefrank.com
Darkzone
www.janraefrank.com/Vanilla.1.0.1/

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von Darkmoor
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   Posted 5/29/2007 8:32 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
darkbow said...
I'll have to go along with Jason on this one, especially in college.

Don't sound so reluctant Ty! cool


~~~~~~~~~~
Jason M. Waltz
Fantasy Editor Staffs & Starships Magazine
~~~~~~~~~~
Ever waltz with the Devil? Or devil with a Waltz? Visit von Darkmoor's thoughts to find out (and read a review or two).

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darkbow
Rabbit lord



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   Posted 5/29/2007 11:33 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Eh, didn't mean it to sound that way! :-)

But, rethinking this topic a little, I also think it's somewhat a matter of culture and availability. Yes, men (especially young men) think a lot about sex in any society, but I'm thinking the amount of time they spend thinking about sex and how they think about it is going to be affected by what they see and hear and experience around them. A relatively sterile environment, such as the common public perception of Victorian England, is not likely to be as titillating as say the modern U.S., or more so, Amsterdam. Further, I think it's also somewhat a matter of what is or is not acceptable within a culture; the U.S. tends to be pretty uptight about sex in some circles because of a strong Puritan background, but that's not the case in other cultures, or in some historical cultures.

And I don't mean to make any kind of judgment whatsover about any culture, just saying things as I see them as a permanent student of history.


www.tyjohnston.blogspot.com
http://swordofbayne.blogspot.com/
www.thereddoorconcierge.blogspot.com
www.thereddoorconcierge.com

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xiaotien
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   Posted 5/29/2007 12:09 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
and also something else to consider, cussedness,
perhaps it isn't that what you wrote doesn't reflect
reality. maybe your editor feels it takes away from
your story a little?

we are not writng truth (even tho there is
the blah blah about write truth then you
have great writing) we are writing a version
of truth for reading.

it's just like you wouldn't write dialog
that is "true" to everyday speech, perhaps
a horny dude thinking about sex all the
time is too...mundane?

just a thought.

and hell, i thought about sex all the time
between puberty through college.
so there you go.

oh, and i'm not a boy. really.


cindy p.
a little sweet, a little sour.
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Jeff Stehman
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   Posted 5/29/2007 2:02 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
xiaotien said...
and hell, i thought about sex all the time
between puberty through college.
so there you go.

:-)

A friend of mine worked as a camp counselor for a summer nursing camp for high schoolers. All of his campers were female, and he eavesdropped on a few of their conversations during breaks. He said, "Do you know what high school girls spend most of their time talking about? Sex. They're as bad as we were!"

But Cindy has a good point. Writing should feel real, not be real. The two are often not the same.


--Jeff Stehman

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UnclePete
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   Posted 5/29/2007 2:16 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
cindy said...
just a thought.

and hell, i thought about sex all the time
between puberty through college.
so there you go.

oh, and i'm not a boy. really.
I think humans think about sex quite a bit, boys and girls, in those years -- it's discovery and exploration and identity finding and etc. and I can't imagine writing about those years without at least mentioning sex -- it would seem pretty odd to me.
 
It can become tiresome to read if it's done heavy-handedly though...


____________
"The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers." --Thomas Jefferson
http://www.creativeguypublishing.com

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MichaelEhart
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   Posted 5/29/2007 3:36 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'll be 52 in a few months. I am looking forward to thinking less about sex. Any day now. Really.


"The Scarlet Colored Beast" The Sword Review, September 2007
"Nothing But Our Tears" The Sword Review. August 2007
"Weaving Spiders Come Not Here" The Sword Review, July 2007
"The View From the Shotglass Floor" Ray Gun Revival, coming soon!
"Six Zombies Doing That Mick Jagger Strut" Damned in Dixie, March 2007
"The Death of Number 23" Dark Krypt, Fall 2006
"Servant of the Manthycore" Sword Review, April 2006
"Voice of the Spoiler"  Better Fiction, Spring 2006
"Dancing with the Elder Gods"-- Thirteen Magazine, October 2005
"It's a Living" Byzarium---November 2005
"An Exorcism Straight, Hold the Elvis" The Sword Review, October 2005
Host, 2005 Nebula Awards Live Chat, sff.net
http://mehart.blogspot.com/

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Raph
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   Posted 5/29/2007 4:48 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Don't think it'll happen, Mike. My grandparents, who are both in their late 80's, came over for a visit one time. When they went to leave, my wife told them to "be careful". My grandpa responded "We don't need to be careful--she can't get pregnant anymore!"

Janrae, I also think Cindy has a good point. It might work better for the story to tone it down a bit. Maybe you could use it as a character trait for one specific character, make him stand out. Having the other characters with different views would also help create more dramatic tension, might open some avenues for conflict between the characters. Just a thought.


Mike O.

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cussedness
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   Posted 5/29/2007 5:20 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
My editor went into a lot more detail about it yesterday evening, and it came down to making the two cultures involved more defined in their attitudes about sex and less similar, using a different set of slang for each of them. She also had me sharpen the my presentation of the sexual customs. I toned down the language for one culture. Now I've turned in the revisions and hope that I covered it all.


Janrae Frank
I have no skeletons in my closet, they are all hanging from the yardarm.

Once there were three brothers, Brandrahoon the vampire, Isranon called the Dawnhand, speaker to spirits, and Waejonan the Accursed, first of sa’necari. Isranon defied his brothers and was destroyed, his descendants forced into the darkness.

Blood Rites
www.fictionwise.com/ebooks/eBook29989.htm
website
www.janraefrank.com
Darkzone
www.janraefrank.com/Vanilla.1.0.1/

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Anthony G Williams
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   Posted 5/30/2007 5:08 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
darkbow said...

But, rethinking this topic a little, I also think it's somewhat a matter of culture and availability. Yes, men (especially young men) think a lot about sex in any society, but I'm thinking the amount of time they spend thinking about sex and how they think about it is going to be affected by what they see and hear and experience around them. A relatively sterile environment, such as the common public perception of Victorian England, is not likely to be as titillating as say the modern U.S., or more so, Amsterdam. Further, I think it's also somewhat a matter of what is or is not acceptable within a culture; the U.S. tends to be pretty uptight about sex in some circles because of a strong Puritan background, but that's not the case in other cultures, or in some historical cultures.
 
I'm not so sure about that. I recently read an article about social attitudes among young people in Iran, which is officially very repressive towards overt sexuality, and they were, to coin a phrase, gagging for it - anonymous blogs by girls are apparently very raunchy. Cultures which take a more open and casual attitude towards nudity and sex seem much more relaxed about the whole business; repression seems to make it worse.
 
You can't blame the youngsters - it's their hormones which are in control.
 


Tony Williams
Scales (2007)
The Foresight War (2004)
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk


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nathan
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   Posted 5/30/2007 11:58 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
cussedness said...

My new editor says that the young males in my most recent novel think about sex too much.

Is that true or am I stereotyping them?

rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl
 
 
She's never heard the study about sex thoughts for men being at least several times every couple of minutes? If anything your portrayal probablly doesn't scratch the surface of how obsessed a hormone bath can make one.
 
First you obsess about ever getting it. Then you obsess about how soon you're going to get it again. It's like a quantum loop that plays until 30 then slows down to several times an hour instead of every minute.
 
However...in the editors defense. Perhaps the problem isn't that you're unrealistic but rather that it doesn't work as a novel construction device. Writing can be realistic but it has to follow the rules of writing more than the rules of the world--if that made sense.
 
Probablly you wrote about them thinking of sex not enough to be true-to-life but too much within the narrative frame work?


VIEW IMAGE
"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
 
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages."

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nathan
Sage



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   Posted 5/30/2007 12:01 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Edit: I didn't read down quite far enough before answering (because I was laughing so hard) but starting with Cindy you guys pretty much covered the ground I was pointing out so apologies for redundancy.


VIEW IMAGE
"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
 
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages."

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erazmus
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   Posted 5/30/2007 2:03 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Think abou sex? 16-20? Constantly-- but it was more like a background humm. Talk about sex? Not so much. We just let it humm along unspoken most of the time. I mean, where I was at at the time, there were plenty of things to discuss and only so much time, and how much discussion can you dedicate to what you don't have, aren't likely to get soon and don't know many in any other condition? (That was 16-17)

Somehow, despite the background humm, most of my friends and I managed to _talk_ a lot more about school (and yes, schoolwork), theatre, D&D, movies, music, books we read, comicbooks we followed (and the attendant writers/artists et al), our jobs, our parents (universally clueless, of course) where we wanted to go to college, what ever was in the news and finally, occasionally, sex.

Once we managed to obtain sex, we spent much, much more time talking _to_ girls, managed to still talk about most of the above and, if possible, actually talked about sex less. But we did manage to add in a lot of discussion about girls and how unreasonable they were. (That was 17-18).

I married at eighteen (the first time) and once I did sex was not on the table for talking, it was my personable buisness thank you very much. I was nearly obsessed with the girl I'd married and didn't see many people outside of work (military). Others might have been buzzing all the time abut it, but I didn't notice-- I was too busy with everything else mentioned above.

When we could be bothered to get out of bed, that is.

I think the overt theme of sex is overplayed all to often. Yes, young men are hormone driven animals. But they aren't mindless hormone driven animals. They may thnk of sex constantly but its an odd timeshare with everything else. Think about sex-.2 seconds-think about what you are doing.6 sec- think about other subject.2 sec-think about sex some more .2 sec . . .like that. Most of us seemed to master this in short order-- or else we'd never gotten out of high school!

Mike


Michael D. Turner
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www.baen.com
"Dutchman Rescue"in Continuum SF #6
www.continuumsciencefiction.com/orders.htm

"An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern" in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises:
www.fantasistent.com/books/anthologies/BASH.php

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Mike Lynch
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   Posted 5/30/2007 3:05 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I think the "Response" vs. "View" for this topic says it all. As of this post, it is 16 responses, and 157 views. People are obviously intrigued by the title and know what's going on, myself included. They are just a bit shy about sharing their feelings.

Mike
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Daniel Arenson
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   Posted 5/30/2007 6:46 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Depends on the guy. Some think about nothing but. Others rarely think about it. Same with girls, by the way.

Daniel


"Discover a world at the edge of imagination..."
Firefly Island, a fantasy novel
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nathan
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   Posted 5/31/2007 12:04 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I need to rethink [boobs] my statement. It is a vicious [girls smell nice] sterotype to perpetrate that men [she's all bendy and stuff!] are animal-slaves to their [boobs] hormones. Man has brought us poetry [blondes] and mathematics [brunettes] and justice [I just want to touch Angelina's hair] and a host of things that have enriched our culture [boobs] and while there will always be those [Paris is naughty!] knuckle draggers who besmirch the name of the [want to touch-touch-touch] rest of us [boobs] sensative new-age guys [cover of Maximum] people should rest assured that we rise [I rise for Bay Watch] above such barbaric nonsense! [Jennifer or Rachael? What if Jennifer kissed Rachel? Sure I'd go with Betty but I'd be thinking of Wilma] And that's all I have to say about that [boobs].












[boobs]


VIEW IMAGE
"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
 
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages."

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darkbow
Rabbit lord



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   Posted 5/31/2007 1:20 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
lololololololol

Oh, and definitely Jennifer. And Betty.


www.tyjohnston.blogspot.com
http://swordofbayne.blogspot.com/
www.thereddoorconcierge.blogspot.com
www.thereddoorconcierge.com

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Jeff Stehman
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   Posted 5/31/2007 1:37 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Nathan, I'm reminded of the Buffy episode in which she could read minds. Specifically, I'm reminded of Xander's thoughts.


--Jeff Stehman

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crystalwizard
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   Posted 5/31/2007 2:52 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
nathan said...
I need to rethink [boobs] my statement. It is a vicious [girls smell nice] sterotype to perpetrate that men [she's all bendy and stuff!] are animal-slaves to their [boobs] hormones. Man has brought us poetry [blondes] and mathematics [brunettes] and justice [I just want to touch Angelina's hair] and a host of things that have enriched our culture [boobs] and while there will always be those [Paris is naughty!] knuckle draggers who besmirch the name of the [want to touch-touch-touch] rest of us [boobs] sensative new-age guys [cover of Maximum] people should rest assured that we rise [I rise for Bay Watch] above such barbaric nonsense! [Jennifer or Rachael? What if Jennifer kissed Rachel? Sure I'd go with Betty but I'd be thinking of Wilma] And that's all I have to say about that [boobs].



rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl

freaked freaked freaked freaked freaked freaked freaked freaked
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Keralen
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   Posted 5/31/2007 9:31 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
crystalwizard said...
nathan said...
I need to rethink [boobs] my statement. It is a vicious [girls smell nice] sterotype to perpetrate that men [she's all bendy and stuff!] are animal-slaves to their [boobs] hormones. Man has brought us poetry [blondes] and mathematics [brunettes] and justice [I just want to touch Angelina's hair] and a host of things that have enriched our culture [boobs] and while there will always be those [Paris is naughty!] knuckle draggers who besmirch the name of the [want to touch-touch-touch] rest of us [boobs] sensative new-age guys [cover of Maximum] people should rest assured that we rise [I rise for Bay Watch] above such barbaric nonsense! [Jennifer or Rachael? What if Jennifer kissed Rachel? Sure I'd go with Betty but I'd be thinking of Wilma] And that's all I have to say about that [boobs].

rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl