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| SFReader Forums > SFReader > Anything Goes! > Christmas Tree vs. Holiday Tree | Forum Quick Jump
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Edward Knight
Jack of all Trades and Master of None
      
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1038
| Posted 12/3/2005 7:53 PM (GMT -4) |   | The city of Nashville just lit the annual tree at their courthouse. For the first time ever they are calling it a Holiday tree rather than a Christmas tree.
I hate it. So do my Jewish and Muslim friends. I eat lunch everyday with a Muslim and she says there is no major holiday that really coincides with Christmas. The art teacher I work with is Jewish. She says the tree is a Christian tradition and has nothing to do with them, so they don't care what we call it.
Political correctness has gone beyond being silly. Now politicians are offending others by trying to include them in a holiday they don't celebrate. Christmas is for Christians. No amount of political and commercial bending is going to change that. If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it is a duck. If it's a tree with lights and ornaments hanging on it, then its' a Christmas tree.
Jews don't want a Hanukah tree. Muslims don't want any part of it either. Why force our holiday on these folks by trying to be inclusive.
Edward Knight
Editor
Journey Books Publishing
Amazing Journeys Magazine
http://www.journeybookspublishing.com
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MichaelEhart
Sage
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 2314
| Posted 12/3/2005 11:49 PM (GMT -4) | | Idiocy, Ed. Pure Idiocy. The sad thing is, I work in liberal politics, and nobody is saying that we shouldn't have Christmas trees. Crap like this just gives ammo to the Bill O'Reilly knuckledraggers.
Nobody is pleased, except the vapid blond newsreaders on the six o'clock local news, who can thereby be outraged, in a perky, plastic fashion.
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Red Viper
Acolyte
Date Joined Mar 2005
Total Posts : 439
| Posted 12/4/2005 6:28 AM (GMT -4) | | We have a Christmas tree in our house, but it doesn't really matter to me whether Nashville calls its tree a Christmas tree or a holiday tree. Or whether cities have Christmas parades or holiday parades. It's their tree, their parade, and they can call it whatever they want. They can call it a tortile taradiddle, for all I care. To me, it's a non-issue.
Red Viper, aka Steve Goble
Current and upcoming stories: "The Redemption of Calthus," in Flashing Swords now; "Gram's Gift," in Amazing Journeys Magazine #9, out now; "The Grey Mother" and "The Bloated Curse," upcoming in Flashing Swords; "The Hungry Bottle," upcoming in Sword's Edge | | Back to Top | | |
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EdMcfadden
Neophyte
Date Joined Sep 2004
Total Posts : 103
| Posted 12/5/2005 6:21 AM (GMT -4) | | | Ed, I think what your seeing is the knee jerk reaction from people who are tired of seeing so much religion in government. It’s their strange way of fighting back. A little crazy, but I can see where they're coming from. Separation of church and state is on the verge of disappearing, so folks who feel that is wrong press wherever they can, I guess. If you don't buy that, I guess we're doomed. | | Back to Top | | |
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Daniel
Carl Jung's Waterboy
Date Joined Aug 2003
Total Posts : 4515
| Posted 12/5/2005 8:57 AM (GMT -4) | | The sad thing is, I work in liberal politics, and nobody is saying that we shouldn't have Christmas trees. Crap like this just gives ammo to the Bill O'Reilly
***
This reminds me of the flag-burning "issue" Bush Sr. wrapped himself up in to avoid answering legitimate questions about his administration. Nobody wants to kill Christmas, just like there wsa never a danger of flag-burning becoming a major fad in the US, not since Kent State anyway, lol.
Daniel
www.pitchblackbooks.com | | Back to Top | | |
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erazmus
Master
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4474
| Posted 12/5/2005 10:45 AM (GMT -4) | | Well, I for one don't shop at stores that promote the generic 'holiday' season over the actual holiday, Christmas. This is easy for me to do this year, being broke to the point of actual poverty (by American standards, anyway.)
My family has always celebrated Yule with a burning log, a decorated tree and a family gathering. In Japan, were I lived for many years, 'Christmas' is a secular, commercial holiday. It works well enough. I like my holidays straight up.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
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Edward Knight
Jack of all Trades and Master of None
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1038
| Posted 12/5/2005 11:36 AM (GMT -4) | | I think you hit the nail, Mike. It has as much to do with commercialism as it does politics. By making Christmas a generic holiday retailers can try to squeeze a few extra bucks out of non-Christians too.
Ed, separation of church and state was never an issue until the government started passing laws trying to regulate religion. When you legislate against morality, it comes back to bite you.
We've gone from a govenment "by and for the people" to a government run by the vocal minority.
Now,with that said, I am against school prayer. Prayer should be done at home before school. But if we do that, it needs to be for all religions. In my district we have to let Muslim students out of class to pray at certain times of day. If Christians can't pray at school then Muslims, Jews, etc. shouldn't either.
We don't get Good Friday off in our district. If a Jewish teacher request a Jewish holiday off they get it--it's the law. If I ask for Good Friday off as a Christian holiday, I'm denied.
Our government keeps forcing the issues of religion upon itself.
I'm against abortion, but I'm also against passing laws against abortion. It's an individual moral choice and can't be legislated. Yet our government keeps making an issue of it by passing laws about it one way or another.
If the government wants to be separate from religious issues, it needs to quit writing religious legislation.
If kids want to pray at school, let them. Don't make a law against it. If kids want two say "God" in the Pledge then let them. If they don't, then they can leave that line out. Don't pass a law one way or the other.
Government can't separate itself from religion by passing more laws intended to seperate religion from government. It has the opposite effect. It's like prohibition in the 20's. It can't be legislated or enforced, so leave it alone. the more government fights religion, the more it will become a part of government.
Edward Knight
Editor
Journey Books Publishing
Amazing Journeys Magazine
http://www.journeybookspublishing.com
http://www.journeybooksonline.com | | Back to Top | | |
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erazmus
Master
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4474
| Posted 12/5/2005 12:43 PM (GMT -4) | | There is nothing inherintly wrong with a 'commercial' holiday. The economy does well and many industies have there eggs in the Christmas/Holiday basket. I don't want any buisness to suffer, I just want to be clear, the gift giving started with Christmas and that is the Holiday most people in this nation are buying gifts for.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Two Ravens" in Amazing Journeys Magazine coming Sept. 05
"An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern" in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises | | Back to Top | | |
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Rob Santa
Sage
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 1379
| Posted 12/5/2005 3:44 PM (GMT -4) | | I think the ridiculousness of this Christmas/holiday tree issue for me is that the tree only has significance to the Christmas holiday. It's not as if other holidays around that timme of year use a giant, lighted tree as a symbol. You don't see the "holiday menorah" anywhere. This is so clearly one of those overly politically corrected issues that it makes you want to laugh. Remember back in the day when there was a campaign to feminize everything, including non-feminine terms? Sure, I wholly agree with chairperson instead of chairman, but personhole cover? When the line gets crossed like this it robs the strength of the legitimate arguements. Did nobody think that was a stupid idea? Or was this a case where the politicos felt they were protecting their jobs by keeping their mouths shut? Who knows...
Rob Santa | | Back to Top | | |
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Edward Knight
Jack of all Trades and Master of None
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1038
| Posted 12/5/2005 6:21 PM (GMT -4) | | Personally, I belive a man who is a chair is a chairman and a woman who hold the position is a chairwoman. As to manhole covers it depends on who's standing under it. I don't know that I've ver seen a woman climbing out of one of those things. I'm sure it happens.
My principal and I got into it the other day. I sing in the faculty choir. (Yeah once upon a lifetime ago I had a scholarship--for singing. I've sang everything form opera to heavy metal.) We got into it because she selected the song the faculty choir would sing for the school "Holiday" Concert. It was "Let There Be Peace on Earth". The problem--she insisted that we change the words from "God as our Father" to "God as our creator"--"brothers all are we" to "neighbors all are we" and "let me walk with my brother" to "let us walk with each other."
Now one of my big pet-peeves is changing song lyrics just for the sake of political correctness. It would be like rewriting Tolkien to strengthen the role of the female characters (which they did to some degree in the movies).
Being that I was the only person in the room who could sing the tenor line (even though I'm a bass) I got my way. If I hadn't, I would have refused to sing the thing.
Edward Knight
Editor
Journey Books Publishing
Amazing Journeys Magazine
http://www.journeybookspublishing.com
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Edward Knight
Jack of all Trades and Master of None
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1038
| Posted 12/14/2005 2:48 PM (GMT -4) | | Due to pressure from the Community, the Nashville City Council has renamed their tree a Christmas Tree. Go figure.
I saw a comic a few days ago that pictured three kids sitting on a bench outside the principle's office waiting to get in.
The first one has a bubble that says, "I said the sh** word"
The second, "I said the f*** word."
The third who is most crestfallen of the three, "I said Christmas."
Edward Knight
Editor
Journey Books Publishing
Amazing Journeys Magazine
http://www.journeybookspublishing.com
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Rob Mancebo
Adept
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 889
| Posted 12/18/2005 9:13 AM (GMT -4) | | quote:
Originally posted by MichaelEhart
Idiocy, Ed. Pure Idiocy. The sad thing is, I work in liberal politics, and nobody is saying that we shouldn't have Christmas trees. Crap like this just gives ammo to the Bill O'Reilly knuckledraggers.
- Well somebody is. It's like in San Jose, CA they errected a big bronze of Quatzaquotal (SP)in the park. When people complained that they didn't want an ancient Aztech god in their park they were told, 'Sorry, it's freedom of religion'. Nearly the same time the cross on a hill overlooking San Francisco, CA (on private property) was ordered taken down by the court. Why? 'Freedom of religion'.
- See why some Christians might feel that their religion is under fire?
- So, when some town tries to take Christmas out of their Christmas tree, fuel is thrown on the fire.
Rob
Adventure-History-Fantasy-Folklore
www.geocities.com/robmancebo/ | | Back to Top | | |
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Rob Mancebo
Adept
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 889
| Posted 12/18/2005 9:24 AM (GMT -4) | | quote:
Originally posted by erazmus
Well, I for one don't shop at stores that promote the generic 'holiday' season over the actual holiday, Christmas. This is easy for me to do this year, being broke to the point of actual poverty (by American standards, anyway.)
My family has always celebrated Yule with a burning log, a decorated tree and a family gathering. In Japan, were I lived for many years, 'Christmas' is a secular, commercial holiday. It works well enough. I like my holidays straight up.
Mike
- Well now see, that's a problem. Remember that Haunikka was here first, wasn't it? It overlaps. To be fair there are several multicurtural hollidays that either overlap or are right on each other's heels. While I'm celibrating Christmas, others are giving gifts for Haunikka, or the ancient 'feast of Saturn', or Yuel, or the secular X-mas. Even those who believe in nothing at all are getting the day off(or Holiday pay for working it). I wish people whose religion I don't know a 'Happy Hollidays' stores are just doing the same thing.
Rob
Adventure-History-Fantasy-Folklore
www.geocities.com/robmancebo/ | | Back to Top | | |
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Rob Mancebo
Adept
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 889
| Posted 12/18/2005 9:45 AM (GMT -4) | | quote:
I just want to be clear, the gift giving started with Christmas and that is the Holiday most people in this nation are buying gifts for.
Mike
- Psssst- The gift-giving was an ancient Roman Pagan tradition. Many early Christian leaders tried to stamp it out as indulgent and frivolous.
- Remember many of our traditions came from Rome or lands that they conquered (including the centers of Christianity). When Rome was Christianized they brought many of their ideas with them. This is why some Christian sects won't celibrate Christmas (which replaced Roman Saturnillia (SP)) or put up a Christmas tree (Germanic), or light a Yuel log (Anglo-Saxon) and, of course, Santa Claus is Turkish, derived from the real St. Nicholas.
- I personally don't see that the roots of outward displays make much difference either way. It's been celibrated in a similar fashion in this country for centuries. It holds meaning for us (for some religious- for others non-religious)
- I let everyone celibrate the time of year in their own way as their heritage and opinion dictate.
Rob
Adventure-History-Fantasy-Folklore
www.geocities.com/robmancebo/ | | Back to Top | | |
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Edward Knight
Jack of all Trades and Master of None
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1038
| Posted 12/18/2005 10:32 AM (GMT -4) | | There is evidence of gifts being given in the Bible at Jesus' birth from the kings of other nations. That's why most Chritians give gifts. I don't think it had anything to do with Roman pagonism, in this case.
I will agree that Christians celebrate Christmas on the Roman day of Saturnilla (SP too). Many Christian holidays were placed on pagon holiday dates. Most theologians and historians agree that Christ probably wasn't born in December.
Edward Knight
Editor
Journey Books Publishing
Amazing Journeys Magazine
http://www.journeybookspublishing.com
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Wild Ape
Stablehand
Date Joined Dec 2005
Total Posts : 41
| Posted 12/18/2005 5:02 PM (GMT -4) | | I agree. To my jewish friends I try hard to remember when Hannaka comes around so that I can celebrate as a friend. I know the difference between a candlestick and a Minora.
I don't let these things bother me. People either accept you or they don't. If they don't screw 'em! Have a Merry Christmas EdK. | | Back to Top | | |
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Rob Santa
Sage
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 1379
| Posted 12/20/2005 4:32 AM (GMT -4) | | What's funny though is that Hannukah is not even a holy day; it's a festival. The high holy days fall around September. Hannukah is a celebration, don't get me wrong, but there isn't nearly as much importance on it as Christmas is to Christians. The fact that it falls around Christmastime is why non-Jewish people apply a higher level of importance to it. Like many of the other festivals, Hannukah falls into the same category of celebration: ages ago our people suffered, let's eat. There's two prayers to say, and they take less than a minute. To maximize efficiency, they're said during the lighting of the candles (it's all about multi-tasking, after all). The gift-giving thing I feel is a copying of the Christmas tradition.
I don't see what's wrong with wishing Merry Christmas. It never offended me. If someone said it to me, I would respond with "Merry Christmas to you, too." At the very least, it's polite. Why would you bite someone's head off who is being nice by expressing a happy sentiment? It really is the silly season, dontcha know.
Rob Santa | | Back to Top | | |
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Bill Snodgrass
Acolyte
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 469
| Posted 12/20/2005 5:52 AM (GMT -4) | | quote:
Originally posted by Rob Santa
..When the line gets crossed like this it robs the strength of the legitimate arguements....
Rob!
I have been looking for years for what it is about extreme PCness that wrenches my gut. This is it! Yes, we need to root out bigotry and negativism. But if we go so far, the legitimate issues get panned by the to-tired-of-the-trivial average person.
As for EdK's post...
Holiday tree... I found your Jewish friend's reaction insightful. As was the person speaking of his Japan experiences. Truely the tree is part of the SECULAR celabration of CHRISTMAS. I'd repeat what was said about the Minora, but I could not say it better.
An interesting thought... No one is up in arms about Thanksgiving, a Christian religious celebration started by the pilgrims. Just a thought.
----
Bill Snodgrass
www.theswordreview.com | www.dkamagazine.com
www.doubleedgedpublishing.com
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Edward Knight
Jack of all Trades and Master of None
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1038
| Posted 12/20/2005 7:34 AM (GMT -4) | | I've wondered about Thanksgiving too. I guess it doesn't ruffle feathers because everyone can be thankful at the same time. The only question is who are they thankful to? :-)
Edward Knight
Editor
Journey Books Publishing
Amazing Journeys Magazine
http://www.journeybookspublishing.com
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Frank
Adept
Date Joined Aug 2005
Total Posts : 628
| Posted 1/2/2006 11:58 AM (GMT -4) | | | I say call it whatever the hell you want as long as I still get a day off. I only take seven days off per year because those holidays are the only days I can close my shop without most people complaining. So call it happy Capital Punishment Day for all I care, just let me sleep in! | | Back to Top | | |
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Edward Knight
Jack of all Trades and Master of None
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1038
| Posted 1/2/2006 12:59 PM (GMT -4) | | What kind of shop do you run?
Edward Knight
Editor
Journey Books Publishing
Amazing Journeys Magazine
http://www.journeybookspublishing.com
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Frank
Adept
Date Joined Aug 2005
Total Posts : 628
| Posted 1/2/2006 1:58 PM (GMT -4) | | | I run a bead shop, as in to make your own beaded jewelry with. You wouldn't believe how crazy women are for beads. What I really wanted to open was a second hand book shop but I knew I would starve cuz nobody reads anymore. | | Back to Top | | |
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