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SFReader Forums > SF Fiction and Art > Right Now I'm Reading.... > Group Read: The Worm Ouroboros

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James Enge
Maker

Date Joined Jan 2006
Total Posts : 208

Posted 1/4/2008 8:38 PM (GMT -4)

I'll kick in a word or two about the Induction...

I first read the book long ago and I like it a lot. But if I hadn't read acres of praise about this book by people whose opinion I trusted, I'm not sure I would made it past the "Induction" that first time. It seemed to be a very awkward ruse to get the reader to suspend disbelief about the imaginary world of the novel.

In later books by Eddison, Lessingham becomes an increasingly prominent and (to me) repellent character--a sort of Mary Sue on steroids. But he's not that bad in the Worm's Induction. Looking ahead to Ch. 1 (hope this isn't a spoiler) he just serves as a straight man for the martlet's infodumps about "Mercury." He mutters his last line early in Ch. 2 when Eddison suddenly seems to realize that Lessingham and the martlet serve no real function at all and drops them from the story.

Am I being too hard on Eddison here? Did any of you get more from the Induction than I did?

James Enge

http://jamesenge.com/

"Turn Up This Crooked Way" in Black Gate 8

"A Covenant with Death" in Flashing Swords 6

"Payment Deferred" in Black Gate 9

"The Lawless Hours" in Black Gate 11

"The Red Worm's Way" forthcoming in Return of the Sword

"The Gordian Stone" forthcoming in Every Day Fiction

"Payment in Full" forthcoming in Black Gate

Bill Ward
Biblioholic

Date Joined Jul 2006
Total Posts : 1662

Posted 1/4/2008 10:17 PM (GMT -4)

No, I thought it was pretty useless actually. The kind of thing that would be excised from a modern novel for sure...the fact of its survival alone gives it a sort of charm I suppose, but it doesn't serve a function really. Maybe in a time before Fantasy with a capital F as a genre it was felt to be needed, I don't know.

Superseding the Induction in importance, to me, is this line from the dedication:

It is neither allegory nor fable but a Story to be read for its own sake.

Now, that's an attitude I can relate too. I think Tolkien might have brought that line up in one of his essays as well, as an example of the kind of thing he thought 'faerie stories' ought to be.

billwardwriter.com

Nathan Jerpe
Acolyte

Date Joined Nov 2007
Total Posts : 228

Posted 1/5/2008 8:23 AM (GMT -4)

James Enge said...

Am I being too hard on Eddison here? Did any of you get more from the Induction than I did?

I didn't mind the Induction so much, if nothing less then because I was bewildered by it. It has a sort of Impressionist feel, which might as well make it as far removed from today's world as the planet they are going to. And the prose is very fine.

I didn't realize it was a framing device until the very end.

http://roguelikefiction.com

Bill Ward
Biblioholic

Date Joined Jul 2006
Total Posts : 1662

Posted 1/5/2008 12:48 PM (GMT -4)

Which is good. I may have been a bit sour on it because I've heard about it when I read past reviews of Eddison and the like. May have been mentioned in the Ballantine intro as well, which I read years ago (and you'll read too Nathan, hopefully).

billwardwriter.com

Silly Boy
Schrödinger's Jester

Date Joined Dec 2007
Total Posts : 40

Posted 1/6/2008 12:38 AM (GMT -4)

Bill Ward said...
No, I thought it was pretty useless actually. The kind of thing that would be excised from a modern novel for sure...the fact of its survival alone gives it a sort of charm I suppose, but it doesn't serve a function really. Maybe in a time before Fantasy with a capital F as a genre it was felt to be needed, I don't know.

Superseding the Induction in importance, to me, is this line from the dedication:

It is neither allegory nor fable but a Story to be read for its own sake.

Now, that's an attitude I can relate too. I think Tolkien might have brought that line up in one of his essays as well, as an example of the kind of thing he thought 'faerie stories' ought to be.

It seemed to me to be a combination "hey, I'm about to delve into fantasy, here, so don't blame me if you were looking for something "serious" and an attempt to set a mood. The former, because (in my VERY limited understanding of literature) before the formal codification of the genres, some people could get a little pissy if it wasn't explicit from the onset that a book was "just" a fantasy. The more erudite of you in the crowd, feel free to slap me silly (or sillier, anyway) if I am wholly incorrect. As for the latter, I think (without having read ahead) that he has done an admirable job of conjuring up a sense of creepiness and dread about the house, and the events that are transpiring.

Oh, and if you want to hear "Les Barricades Mysterieuses," it's here:

http://barrysolow.vox.com/library/audio/6a00cdf7ebfd0a094f00d4142a8f34685e.html

you may have to copy and paste, since I have no clue what i'm doing...

"I used to think that the brain was the most wonderful organ in my body. Then I realized who was telling me this." Emo Phillips

Nathan Jerpe
Acolyte

Date Joined Nov 2007
Total Posts : 228

Posted 1/6/2008 8:21 AM (GMT -4)

Silly Boy said...

It seemed to me to be a combination "hey, I'm about to delve into fantasy, here, so don't blame me if you were looking for something "serious" and an attempt to set a mood. The former, because (in my VERY limited understanding of literature) before the formal codification of the genres, some people could get a little pissy if it wasn't explicit from the onset that a book was "just" a fantasy. The more erudite of you in the crowd, feel free to slap me silly (or sillier, anyway) if I am wholly incorrect. As for the latter, I think (without having read ahead) that he has done an admirable job of conjuring up a sense of creepiness and dread about the house, and the events that are transpiring.

I think you're on to something, though even back then there was no hard and fast rule. Verne and Poe would often delve into fantasy implicitly, though from what I've seen it was more of a crescendo than an overture like we have here.

http://roguelikefiction.com

Gustavo
Sage

Date Joined Aug 2007
Total Posts : 1199

Posted 1/7/2008 1:11 PM (GMT -4)

I have to agree with most of what's been said in the intro, and just add that, strangely, the house from the induction seems to have been at least part of the inspiration for Tolkien's House of Lost Play, which also seerves as a framing device in his earliest sketches of the Middle-Earth mythology.

Visit my livejournal! http://bondo-ba.livejournal.com/

Nik
Adept

Date Joined Feb 2007
Total Posts : 774

Posted 1/8/2008 5:20 PM (GMT -4)

I'm going to try to catch up and keep up with all of you. Just picked up a fourth Ballantine printing (1968).

Nicholas Ian Hawkins

Forthcoming
"Knowledge and Dust," in Magic & Mechanica, from Ricasso Press, Winter 2008

Published
"Relativity," in FLASHSHOT, September 28, 2007

Visit my website, Trampler of Beautiful Phrases, at nihawkins.wordpress.com

Despiciblus
Neophyte

Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 76

Posted 1/10/2008 12:21 AM (GMT -4)

I’ve read that Eddison cribbed the names for the nations/factions in The Worm Ouroboros from his own childhood notebooks. Apparently the story had been stewing away in his mind from an early age. I wish I could site my source for this info but I’m drawing a blank.

I’m probably stating the obvious but this strange nomenclature is simply Eddison’s way to denote nationalism, and the genealogies of his world’s aristocracy. There's probably no hidden meaning in them. That said, I’m going to climb out on a limb with the following: since the tale reads like Jacobean lit in both plot and language, I’m wondering if the Witches, Demons, Goblins and Pixies might be reflections of the Greco-roman belief in the humors: blood, phlegm, black bile, and yellow bile, which were supposed to explain behavioral differences in people. Ben Jonson did it, so why not Eddison?

Allen

James Enge
Maker

Date Joined Jan 2006
Total Posts : 208

Posted 1/10/2008 1:06 PM (GMT -4)

Despiciblus said...
I’m wondering if the Witches, Demons, Goblins and Pixies might be reflections of the Greco-roman belief in the humors: blood, phlegm, black bile, and yellow bile, which were supposed to explain behavioral differences in people. Ben Jonson did it, so why not Eddison?

Interesting! Which nation do you think goes with which humor?

von Darkmoor
Small Press Publisher (and Dancer still)

Date Joined Dec 2005
Total Posts : 2984

Posted 1/14/2008 11:58 AM (GMT -4)

well gents, in case no one's noticed, I'll confess now to being behind - I will try to catch up but I'd say don't count on me right now - this lack of reading time for the first time in my life has been a bit trying, darn it all!

~~~~~~~~~~
Jason M. Waltz
Assistant Managing & Anthology Editor Flashing Swords Press
~~~~~~~~~~
Ever waltz with the Devil? Visit von Darkmoor's thoughts to find out (and read a review or two).
~~~~~~~~~~
Critical Eye of the Dragon Avatar courtesy of crystalwizard

Bill Ward
Biblioholic

Date Joined Jul 2006
Total Posts : 1662

Posted 1/14/2008 7:55 PM (GMT -4)

I've fallen behind too, and blame you for it.

billwardwriter.com

von Darkmoor
Small Press Publisher (and Dancer still)

Date Joined Dec 2005
Total Posts : 2984

Posted 1/15/2008 12:59 AM (GMT -4)

moi?! Y ever 4? You're a big boy, Billie; methinks perhaps it is the overkill you've done to yourself the last few years. so you don't have 50 books read by the end of January - will you really melt away?

Bill Ward
Biblioholic

Date Joined Jul 2006
Total Posts : 1662

Posted 1/15/2008 1:26 AM (GMT -4)

I have been feeling somewhat liquescent lately....

billwardwriter.com

Bill Ward
Biblioholic

Date Joined Jul 2006
Total Posts : 1662

Posted 1/21/2008 6:05 PM (GMT -4)

For anyone that has fallen behind please go ahead and post in the earlier threads, no reason those of us who have read ahead can't still discuss the earlier chapters, and I'm sure there's plenty to talk about we didn't mention the first time around.

billwardwriter.com

von Darkmoor
Small Press Publisher (and Dancer still)

Date Joined Dec 2005
Total Posts : 2984

Posted 1/21/2008 10:30 PM (GMT -4)

<ouch!> Hey <oof!>, thans for the <yowzers!> gentle prod <hey! watch it!> there . . . but it ain't looking good for the good looking - if ya know whats I mean. I yam whats I yam, and right now I yams an editor with no time to be a-reading. Forgive me all, my intentions were pure.

Nathan Jerpe
Acolyte

Date Joined Nov 2007
Total Posts : 228

Posted 1/21/2008 11:16 PM (GMT -4)

Thought those who were following along might find this useful:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/ring/two/maps.htm

AFAIK Eddison didn't draw any maps for Ouroboros.

http://roguelikefiction.com

Nathan Jerpe
Acolyte

Date Joined Nov 2007
Total Posts : 228

Posted 2/1/2008 12:14 PM (GMT -4)

Below is a Dramatis Personae for the Worm Ouroboros. Might be fun to add annotations (short descriptions, what chapter a character was introduced in, etc.)

This is a work-in-progress.

HUMANS

Lessingham

Lessingham's wife(?)

ANIMALS

The Martlet

DEMONS

Lord Juss

Volle

Vizz

Lord Zigg

Spitfire

Goldry Bluzco

Brandoch Daha

Lady Mevrian

Astar of Rettray

Bremery of Shaws

WITCHES

Ambassador to the Demons

King Gorice XI

Corinius

Corund

King Gorice XII

Duke Corsus

Hacmon, son of Corund

Heming, son of Corund

Viglus, son of Corund

Dormanes, son of Corund

Laxus

Lady Sriva

Gallandus

Heming

Cargo, son of Corund

Dekalajus, son of Corsus

Gorius, son of Corsus

GOBLINS

Lord Gro

Gaslark

Teshmar

Helteranius

Zeldornius

Jalcanaius Fostus

PIXIES

La Fireez

Prezmyra

IMPS

Fax Fay Faz

Mivarsh Faz

Illarosh Faz

Lurmesh Faz

Gandassa Faz

Philpritz Faz

OTHERS

The Red Foliot

Queen Sophonisba

http://roguelikefiction.com

Bill Ward
Biblioholic

Date Joined Jul 2006
Total Posts : 1662

Posted 2/1/2008 1:53 PM (GMT -4)

Great job on that Nathan, I kept wishing for a dramatis persona in my book while I was reading.

Another thing that might be useful is a list of what cities belong to what factions, since quite often Eddison just mentions the city--and I've usually forgotten exactly who's it is at that point :)

billwardwriter.com

Nik
Adept

Date Joined Feb 2007
Total Posts : 774

Posted 2/1/2008 3:20 PM (GMT -4)

Thanks, nathan, This is great. Don't forget Mevrian for the Demons category.

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