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Gabe Dybing
Neophyte

Date Joined May 2006
Total Posts : 147

Posted 6/23/2006 5:34 PM (GMT -4)

Frank said:

Zoroaster, a rather extreme religious reformer, is said to have lived in the sixth century before Christ in Persia and his story was already well known throughout the middle East by the time of Christ, including the bit about laying dead for exactly three days and then resurrecting. A bit odd, don't you think?

If Zoroaster did this, who would Jesus be if he didn't do the same? Everyone would say, "So you're the Son of God? Big deal! Have you heard about Zoroaster? HE WAS DEAD FOR THREE DAYS!"

Competition among the Gods...

The bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

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darkbow
Rabbit lord

Date Joined Oct 2005
Total Posts : 1570

Posted 6/23/2006 5:39 PM (GMT -4)

Frank and gang,
Just in case: I'm not try to convert anyone, or push a Christian POV. Again, just playing devil's advocate.
I have historical interests, and that's as far as it goes. I could just as easily debate that Christ never existed, but what fun would that be?

Gabe Dybing
Neophyte

Date Joined May 2006
Total Posts : 147

Posted 6/23/2006 5:40 PM (GMT -4)

I said...If Zoroaster did this, who would Jesus be if he didn't do the same? Everyone would say, "So you're the Son of God? Big deal! Have you heard about Zoroaster? HE WAS DEAD FOR THREE DAYS!"

But why must they be competing? Maybe they are brother-Buddhas and just do stuff like this. Maybe the whole death/rebirth archetype was really IN during this historical millenium.

It's just what Gods and holy men do.

OK. I'm done now. Really.

The bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

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nathan
Sage

Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 2111

Posted 6/23/2006 5:42 PM (GMT -4)

Jeff Stehman said...

nathan said...
He may have been sourced in one ledge of 'who got crucified' at Golgotha on day XVI

Crucifixion? Good. Out of the door, line on the left, one cross each.

(I first saw Life of Brian when it was shown on movie night at my church-affiliated college.

)

They do good work, those monte python guys!

My favorite was John Cleese on I think David Letterman. He was talking about monte python touring around Germany. They've got a tour guide from the government. They go to Auswitz. The tour guide comes back from the front gates and tells the boys "Sorry, they say Auswitz is closed."

The monte pythonette yells back "Tell 'em we're Jewish!"

My jaw hit the ground I was so stunned they had the balls to say that.

VIEW IMAGE

"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews

Jeff Stehman
Sage

Date Joined Mar 2005
Total Posts : 1224

Posted 6/23/2006 6:04 PM (GMT -4)

Frank said...
Zoroaster, a rather extreme religious reformer, is said to have lived in the sixth century before Christ in Persia and his story was already well known throughout the middle East by the time of Christ, including the bit about laying dead for exactly three days and then resurrecting. A bit odd, don't you think?

I think you'll find wide-ranging dates for when he might have lived. There's also the question of whether or not his well-known pre-Christ story is the same one we know now, or if it was heavily modified in the first few centuries of CE. What I'm really saying is that the approach you joked about seems to hold Christianity to a much different standard than Zoroastrianism.

As for his resurrection after three days, I've heard this mentioned before, but I'm finding nothing on it in on-line references. Anyone have a pointer?

--Jeff Stehman

Gabe Dybing
Neophyte

Date Joined May 2006
Total Posts : 147

Posted 6/24/2006 12:53 AM (GMT -4)

I know we have to be very careful about Wikipedia, but the article on Zoroaster is very interesting:

"Historical
The historical approach compares social customs described in the Gāthās to what is known of the time and region through other historical studies. Since the Gathas are very cryptic, and open to much interpretation, such a method can also only yield very rough estimates. The Gathas point to a society of nomadic pastoralists[citation needed], contrasting sharply with a view of a Zoroaster living in the court of an Achaemenid satrap such as Vištaspa. Also, the absence of any mention of Achaemenids or even any West Iranian tribes such as Medes and Persians, or even Parthians, in the Gathas makes it unlikely that historical Zoroaster ever lived in the court of a 6th century satrap. It is possible that Zoroaster lived sometime between the 13th to the 11th centuries BC, prior to the settlement of Iranian tribes in the central and west of the Iranian Plateau, but it is just as likely for him to have lived in a rural society during the centuries immediately following the Iranian migration. The historical estimate is thus consistent with, but just as vague as, the linguistic one. Gherardo Gnoli gives a date near ca. 1000 BC."

The article also says:

"Estimates for the lifetime of Zoroaster vary widely, depending upon the sources used. 1400 BC–1000 BC is cited by Mary Boyce in her A History of Zoroastrianism (1989), representing the current scholarly consensus."

and:

"As we know, Zoroaster himself composed the eighteen poems that make up the oldest parts of the Avesta, the Gathas."

I'm especially interested in this last part. Frank, are you suggesting that Zoroaster is more verifiable as a historical person because scholars believe he wrote portions of a text HIMSELF rather than merely purportedly having a few disciples record his sayings second hand, like Jesus?

The bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

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Gabe Dybing
Neophyte

Date Joined May 2006
Total Posts : 147

Posted 6/24/2006 1:11 AM (GMT -4)

My wandering brought me to a wikipedia discussion of Mithra (which I remember an old Scottish-immigrant professor of Greek/Roman/Medieval history bringing up to discount Christianity), which seems a lot more challenging to a valid source for Christianity, though it seems that most scholars believe the cult of Mithra and the cult of Christ arose in Rome simultaneously. All interested should see the chapter on "similarities to Christianity," a chapter that is mildly "disputed for its neutrality."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraism

The bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

http://www.sfreader.com/authors/GabeDybing/

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ScrewMoonshine
Adept

Date Joined Aug 2005
Total Posts : 851

Posted 6/24/2006 3:05 PM (GMT -4)

Gabe Dybing said...

The article also says:

"Estimates for the lifetime of Zoroaster vary widely, depending upon the sources used. 1400 BC–1000 BC is cited by Mary Boyce in her A History of Zoroastrianism (1989), representing the current scholarly consensus."

Holy cow! Is this a typo? Scholars consent that the man lived to about 400 years old?

Robert Orme

Out now: "Such Dreams" in Amazing Journeys Magazine #12

Jeff Stehman
Sage

Date Joined Mar 2005
Total Posts : 1224

Posted 6/25/2006 1:55 PM (GMT -4)

I believe she's talking about when he lived, not how long. The various sources I've read the last few days suggest anywhere from 1800 BC to 600 BC, so her target is right in the middle.

--Jeff Stehman

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