SFReader.com : Science Fiction, Fantasy, and Horror Book Reviews & more      SFWatcher.com : Science Fiction, Fantasy, and Horror Movie Review



  Home | Log In | Register | Calendar | Search | Help
   
SFReader Forums > The Real World > Non-Fiction Books > God is not Great  Forum Quick Jump
 
New Topic Post Reply Printable Version
84 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page :
 1  2  3  4 
[ << Previous Thread | Next Thread >> | Show Newest Post First ]

Daniel
Carl Jung's Waterboy



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Aug 2003
Total Posts : 4515
 
   Posted 7/6/2007 7:11 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
but I think someone like Antony Flew, who has long argued for a presumption of atheism, would disagree that his belief in the likelihood of first-cause god is irrational

***

Right on that's the WHOLE point. Hitchens' brand of atheism also seems to be trying to promote a restrictive definition of "rationality" and "reason," claim it as the atheists' own and exalt it above any other mode of thought or belief.
 
Never mind that many of the premises of rationality were established by and through the efforts of people of faith and, in fact, "rational" mystics such as Einstein, to whom I earlier referred.
 
Along with "rationality," atheists often claim science, depsite its inherent rational fallacies and recurrent mystical and religious connections. Meanwhile, all other modes are dismissed as "irrational" or "superstitious." The irony being that modes of thought such as philosophical idealism and many forms of myticism are based in human rationality and, in fact, extend its scope and validity.

Excellent, excellent way of stating it, Jeff.


"Art is the celebration of the ego's destruction."

Daniel

Back to Top
 

Jeff Stehman
Sage

Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Mar 2005
Total Posts : 1224
 
   Posted 7/7/2007 11:56 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Daniel said...
Hitchens' brand of atheism also seems to be trying to promote a restrictive definition of "rationality" and "reason," claim it as the atheists' own and exalt it above any other mode of thought or belief.

I'll occasionally buy an issue of _Skeptic_. They do pretty good, but the reminder that Christians do not have a monopoly on irrational thinking does my heart good. ;-)


--Jeff Stehman

Back to Top
 

Daniel
Carl Jung's Waterboy



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Aug 2003
Total Posts : 4515
 
   Posted 7/7/2007 3:55 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'll occasionally buy an issue of _Skeptic_. They do pretty good, but the reminder that Christians do not have a monopoly on irrational thinking does my heart good
 
***
 
Yes, and you can always throw on some old Rush to get Mr. Peart's irrational take on borrowing from Coleridge (Xanadu), Shakespeare (All the World's  Stage!?), and Ayn Rand (Anthem) simultaneously to use rock and roll as a forum for agnosticism!!!! Creative indeed.  
 
Although his recent fascination with "Leela: the Game of Self-Knowledge" as well his interest in vanitas art, make me think he has become rather "superstitious" and soft-headed in his old age.....
 
 
  rofl  


"Art is the celebration of the ego's destruction."

Daniel

Back to Top
 

BarbT
Acolyte

Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Feb 2005
Total Posts : 390
 
   Posted 7/9/2007 1:47 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Can I receive college credit for having read the whole thing?  I thought it was clear, well balanced, and likely to cause severe discomfort only to those insecure in their faith (whatever that might be).  
 
One of my favorite sayings is: "Someday the scientists will reach the top of the mountain and find the mystics waiting to greet them." cool
 
-Barb
Back to Top
 

Daniel
Carl Jung's Waterboy



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Aug 2003
Total Posts : 4515
 
   Posted 7/9/2007 8:47 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
One of my favorite sayings is: "Someday the scientists will reach the top of the mountain and find the mystics waiting to greet them."

***

That's awesome!

Yeah, the atheism essay is pretty dull reading all-right!!!! LOL But it seemed appropriate for the thread and I wanted to be clear that I understand many of the very rational objections skeptics have to religious and mystical urges and ideas.

Thanks for reading, Barb!


"Art is the celebration of the ego's destruction."

Daniel

Back to Top
 

Rob Santa
Sage



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 1390
 
   Posted 7/10/2007 12:58 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Steve Martin said it best decades ago...

“What if you died and went to…heaven?

If there were clouds and angels with wings?

Wouldn’t you feel stupid?

In college they said this was all bullsh*t”



Rob Santa
Hopelessly Addicted Writer of Speculative Fiction
and CEO of Ricasso Press

Back to Top
 

Daniel
Carl Jung's Waterboy



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Aug 2003
Total Posts : 4515
 
   Posted 7/10/2007 11:10 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
“What if you died and went to…heaven?

If there were clouds and angels with wings?

Wouldn’t you feel stupid?


***

I think I'd feel under-dressed and possibly -- I'd develop a sudden fear of heights!!!! Or is that merely a fear of falling! ;-)


"Art is the celebration of the ego's destruction."

Daniel

Back to Top
 

Daniel
Carl Jung's Waterboy



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Aug 2003
Total Posts : 4515
 
   Posted 7/23/2007 4:57 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

A short set of notes on "Illumination," germane to this discussion, I think, due to the debate over the distinction between "rational" and "irrational" modes of comprehension.

 

Illumination

The term "illumination" in metaphysics refers to an ineffable state of knowledge or communion with a godhood or an absolute ideal. Because the state of illumination is, by nature, a deeply subjective experience, the quantification or definition of the state is difficult to execute through traditional expository methods or scientific investigation. Illumination is a desired state for mystic who maintain the "practice of putting oneself into, and remaining in, direct relation with God, the Absolute, or any unifying principle of life. Mysticism is inseparably linked with religion. Because of the nature of mysticism, firsthand objective studies of it are virtually impossible." ("Mysticism," 2004)

Rather, what can be known, second-hand, about the illuminative state is gleaned through the expression of mystics,artists, poets, and writers who express their subjective apprehensions through various means, often utilizing complex and mythologically driven symbolic systems of reference. "The language of mysticism is always difficult and usually symbolic. This is readily seen in the Song of Songs in the Old Testament, in the book of Revelation in the New Testament, and in the writings of William Blake. Mystics, especially those of the Roman Catholic and the Islamic traditions, have made use of a terminology borrowed from ordinary human love. " ("Mysticism," 2004)

In many cases, illumination is closely affiliated with established mystical traditions (as in Zen Buddhism) and also with established religious traditions (such as Roman Catholicism). In all cases, illumination is regarded as a step on the road to union with God or the ideal, but not a conclusion or attainment of the goal in and of itself. In this regard, illumination stands closely in hand with another mystical state known as "purgation" where the soul undergoes a painful cleansing of its impurities in order to enter into union with God or the ideal. Illumination can be regarded, metaphorically, as the light which shines through the cleaned "window" of the soul, as it has been cleared through the purgative state. The two states are seen as continuing and sometimes overlapping. ("Mysticism," 2004)

The basic pattern for the path to mystical union with God or the ideal can be generically rendered, although the specific differ widely throughout geographic and culturally specific traditions and beliefs. At the core of the mystical journey, involving periods of illumination, several key archetypal aspects can be cited: "The soul undergoes a purification (the purgative way), which leads to a feeling of illumination and greater love of God[...] after a period the soul may be said to enter into mystical union with God[...] an ecstatic state to a final perfect state of union with God."  ("Mysticism," 2004)

The process above is quite generally envisioned and the above description is probably as close to anything like an objective account of what mystical experience is and what its goals are; the illuminative feeling indicates that the mystic has successfully enjoined the path to union with God or the ideal. However, it is not the final union with God or the ideal and its ecstacy are not particularly connotative of what mystics have imagined the final union with God or the ideal to be, once actually attained. Rather, illumination is a state of awareness and knowledge that blossoms from mystical communion with God or the ideal. It is not a linear knowledge:"We have illumination which is no mere deduction from previous knowledge; but the illumination is at the same time like a leap of recognition. This may throw some light on the problem we noticed earlier -- the relation between faith described in terms of the energizing of the Holy Spirit, and man's efforts of reason." (Emmet, 1945, p. 133)

The distinction between ordinary rationality and mystical illumination is an important one, for knowledge that is derived by linear reason is often interpreted by humanity as an achievement of humanity alone, whereas illuminative knowledge gleaned from communion with God or the ideal often comes like a "bolt out of the blue" and transcends not only individual ego, but racial, national, and cultural biases as well:

"Thus the community whose way is defined by Torah looks to the moment when Moses stood on Sinai; the Christian Church sees its life as continuing God's act of reconciliation Prophet as the community of the faithful, committed to God in submission to the stark majesty of His Transcendence; Buddhists look to the moment of illumination under the Bo tree, when Buddha saw the way of release from the restlessness of finite existence.

(Emmet, 1945, p. 156)

Just as scientific or other types of linear knowledge may cast world-changing ideas or technologies into the flow of history, the mystical tradition reminds humanity that we are all united in the truths of the highest ideals, in the love of God. Illumination often transports the mystic not only to euphoric feelings of ecstacy, but important realizations about the nature of human existence and how human tragedy and pain can be minimized and sometimes overcome. From important illuminations come "new ways of living in relation to the transcendent, which have given form to new ways of feeling and of thought. These were not reached by general reflections on the general character of experience" but born out of the devotion of individual seekers who looked inward to find the illuminative power and phenomena which every mystic believes emanates directly from God or the ideal. (Emmet, 1945, p. 156) The verifiable impact of religious and philosophical movements and doctrines that began in the subjective state if illumination are evidence that illumination represents a process of human reason and knowledge which is as important as linear modes.

 

References

Mysticism. (2004). In The Columbia Encyclopedia (6th ed.). New York: Columbia University Press.

Emmet, D. M. (1945). The Nature of Metaphysical Thinking. London: Macmillan & Co. Ltd.


"Art is the celebration of the ego's destruction."

Daniel

Back to Top
 

Charles Gramlich
Acolyte



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Aug 2007
Total Posts : 267
 
   Posted 11/3/2007 12:35 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Anybody see the Southpark episode where Cartman goes into the distant future and finds two human athiest groups battling against each other for who are the true atheists?

Religion, like "all" human instutions, including government, the medical infrastructure, education, etc., etc., is flawed in many ways and has good points in others. The problem with all these institutions is that they are run by humans, who are flawed in many ways and have good points in others.

Humans are not primarily rational beings. They are primarily emotional. As such, I suspect we are, as a race, incapable of abolishing religion without replacing it with something else that is just as flawed.


Charles Gramlich
 

Back to Top
 
New Topic Post Reply Printable Version
84 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page :
 1  2  3  4 
 
Forum Information
Currently it is Friday, September 05, 2008 2:40 AM (GMT -4)
There are a total of 80,480 posts in 6,382 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 20 new threads and 108 reply posts. View Active Threads
Who's Online
This forum has 1225 registered members. Please welcome our newest member, sacredmime.
14 Guest(s), 0 Registered Member(s) are currently online.  Details