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| SFReader Forums > SFReader > Introduce Yourself > JRuland | Forum Quick Jump
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JRuland
Stablehand
      
Date Joined Mar 2005
Total Posts : 43
| Posted 7/23/2005 8:44 AM (GMT -5) |   | Hey all, I'm a college student with about 2 years left, studying math and computer science. Right now I'm taking summer classes and my required art class is killing me--my art class! Between work and school I read and write as much as possible. I've published in small magazines and ezines like Amazing Journeys and AlienSkin. My favorite Author is Arthur C. Clarke but I like all the speculative genres.
It's my belief that we as authors need to revitalize not only the S&S genre, but all of fiction. I think one reason the publishing market is almost stagnant at this point in history is that authors and publishers don't try to compete with other forms of media--TV, radio, video games, etc. I believe we need to harnass the power of the written word to do things that the other media can never do, and give non-readers a reason to pick up a book. I don't want to write a long post about it in my introduction, but I'll be posting more threads in the coming days and I hope to generate some good discussion on the issue. I've read some of the threads here and there's some great discussion on related topics going right now. | | Back to Top | | |
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erazmus
Master
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4549
| Posted 7/23/2005 9:33 AM (GMT -5) | | quote:
Originally posted by JRuland
It's my belief that we as authors need to revitalize not only the S&S genre, but all of fiction. I think one reason the publishing market is almost stagnant at this point in history is that authors and publishers don't try to compete with other forms of media--TV, radio, video games, etc. I believe we need to harnass the power of the written word to do things that the other media can never do, and give non-readers a reason to pick up a book. I don't want to write a long post about it in my introduction, but I'll be posting more threads in the coming days and I hope to generate some good discussion on the issue. I've read some of the threads here and there's some great discussion on related topics going right now.
OOps, forgot my message.
I'm lloking forward to seeing your posts on this board. I too feel that publishing is shirking from the field prematurly.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com | | Back to Top | | |
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Bill Snodgrass
Acolyte
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 469
| Posted 7/23/2005 2:31 PM (GMT -5) | | Welcome to SFReader. I liked your ideas about revitalization of fiction.
----
Bill Snodgrass
www.theswordreview.com
www.siliar.com
www.billsnodgrass.com | | Back to Top | | |
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Storn
Neophyte
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 153
| Posted 7/24/2005 3:32 AM (GMT -5) | | One art class killing you? What is the class? Maybe I can point you in the direction of some hard-learned lessons. Well taught art IS all about the hard work. No getting around it. But I might be border-line masochistic, I loved art classes.
WElcome. I'm brand new here myself.
Visual Storytelling
http://www.stornc.rpggallery.com/ | | Back to Top | | |
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Daniel
Carl Jung's Waterboy
Date Joined Aug 2003
Total Posts : 4515
| Posted 7/24/2005 7:20 AM (GMT -5) | | Welcome!!
Art class, ugh, I've got some tortured memories there. LOL.
Daniel
www.pitchblackbooks.com | | Back to Top | | |
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Dave
Master of the Domain
Date Joined Aug 2003
Total Posts : 686
| Posted 7/24/2005 3:06 PM (GMT -5) | | | | |
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JRuland
Stablehand
Date Joined Mar 2005
Total Posts : 43
| Posted 7/26/2005 4:06 PM (GMT -5) | | quote:
Originally posted by Storn
One art class killing you? What is the class? Maybe I can point you in the direction of some hard-learned lessons. Well taught art IS all about the hard work. No getting around it. But I might be border-line masochistic, I loved art classes.
It's just a required art class. It's tough because it's a summer class and it's condensed into 7.5 weeks and our prof gives us a lot of homework after every class. Combine that with my (also-condensed) assembly language class and that's a lot of work for someone who still works an actual job 3 days each week. Maybe the fall will be easier...
The above explains why I haven't been able to start a thread on the revitalization of the fiction market just yet. For now I'm going to offer a couple of things that I believe will improve fiction in general.
First off, fiction needs to move faster--more things need to happen on each page. I believe there is too much fiction out there in which characters talk and walk around and little actually happens.
Second, I think fiction needs to be more imaginative, particularly speculative fiction. We cannot continue to rewrite the classics of the 20th century with relatively minor twists; we need to be much more bold and create new classics. If I pick up another high fantasy story expecting something new and it ends up being just another Tolkien clone, I think I might burn it. I believe that one advantage fiction has over other media is the power of our unlimited imaginations; literally anything we conceive in our minds can be translated into a story on paper. If people want cliches they can just watch TV; it takes a lot less brain power.
These are very general concepts; I've purposefully not gone into any specifics as of yet. Hopefully they will stir some discussion but if not I might start a new thread and repost them. I'd like to hear what others think. | | Back to Top | | |
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erazmus
Master
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4549
| Posted 7/26/2005 4:18 PM (GMT -5) | | If I pick up another high fantasy story expecting something new and it ends up being just another Tolkien clone, I think I might burn it.
Hey if you are gonna start burning books, wait until I get one out there. Thats part of my marketing plan, just make sure you do it in public, notify the news media and denounce me for something while you do it.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com | | Back to Top | | |
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cussedness
Adept
Date Joined Apr 2005
Total Posts : 850
| Posted 7/29/2005 9:29 PM (GMT -5) | | welcome
Janrae Frank
Blood Rites http://www.fictionwise.com/ebooks/eBook29989.htm
Print edition from Rage Machine: http://www.lulu.com/content/135858
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Rob Mancebo
Adept
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 960
| Posted 7/30/2005 2:27 AM (GMT -5) | | quote:
Originally posted by erazmus
Hey if you are gonna start burning books, wait until I get one out there. Thats part of my marketing plan, just make sure you do it in public, notify the news media and denounce me for something while you do it.
Mike
- Awwwww man! Someone else is planning on using that marketing plan too!
- When my eldest daughter was grumbling about some group 'Burning Harry Potter' I just sighed and told her, "Wow! Someday I hope to write a book that gets people excited enough to burn it."
- So I say, "Burn all you want, they'll print more."
They have to buy 'em to burn 'em (the silly people!) I'm sure the author will, 'Cry all the way to the bank.'
Rob
Adventure-History-Fantasy-Folklore
www.geocities.com/robmancebo/ | | Back to Top | | |
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erazmus
Master
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4549
| Posted 7/30/2005 8:40 AM (GMT -5) | | Rob,
Plus _News Coverage_! You know how much a thirty second spot on the local news costs? A three minute story is priceless. A wire service story about it reaches millions. Even if it gets put into the "odd news" its publicity no author (except Rowling and maybe King, who get it free anyway) could pay for.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com | | Back to Top | | |
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JRuland
Stablehand
Date Joined Mar 2005
Total Posts : 43
| Posted 7/31/2005 9:32 AM (GMT -5) | | quote:
Plus _News Coverage_! You know how much a thirty second spot on the local news costs? A three minute story is priceless. A wire service story about it reaches millions. Even if it gets put into the "odd news" its publicity no author (except Rowling and maybe King, who get it free anyway) could pay for.
Good points all. Not only would this generate massive publicity, but the book would also be talked about for years to come... Is it better to be forgotten, or hatefully remembered? No one wants to be forgotten...
Theres's just one problem. I don't think anyone would care if I burned a book. Doh! Although a good strategy might be to find one of those mobs-for-hire and pay them to do it. If my writing career stagnates by the time I'm 35 or so it may not be a bad idea... | | Back to Top | | |
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erazmus
Master
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4549
| Posted 7/31/2005 10:02 AM (GMT -5) | | J.,
Oh thank's! I didn't start writing until I was thirty eight.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com | | Back to Top | | |
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Bruce Durham
Crom's Administrator & Drinking Buddy
Date Joined Jan 2005
Total Posts : 626
| Posted 7/31/2005 10:26 AM (GMT -5) | | quote:
Originally posted by erazmus
J.,
Oh thank's! I didn't start writing until I was thirty eight.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
I didn't start until I was 49. So for me the clock is ticking.
Welcome JRuland. I love art, and I love your idea about revitalising fiction beyond S&S. I think we're in a real period of doldrums, though it appears next to impossible to convince the main-stream people otherwise. It's still worth the effort, though.
-------------------------
Admin: Community Forums for the Official Site of Conan the Barbarian
Contributing Editor for Flashing Swords. The leading edge in fantasy: Guaranteed Oprah Free!
Moderator for Paradox Interactive Games AAR and Fanfiction Forums
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erazmus
Master
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4549
| Posted 7/31/2005 10:45 AM (GMT -5) | | Bruce,
The main stream of the publishing world has been doomsaying so long that even when facts counterdict them they refuse to change their position.
Even though most of them refuse to change one dot of the process used to garner their product or promote it most of them still manage to make money every year. Not as much as they'd like but few are showing a loss. If the industry were really in trouble you'd think they'd do more than moan about it. Like maybe they'd try embracing some of the new technologies in a meaningful way.
I think they don't change or even try because to do so would make them do two things people never want to do, admit they were wrong and take responcibility for their failures as well as their successes. Book distribution in the english speaking world is a joke and a dismal one at that. Only pressure from the major publishers is ever likely to change that but even when they address the issues they do so in a way as to try to cut for themselves a bigger piece of a smaller pie. They spend no effort trying to make a bigger pie, seemingly out of fear that they'll get a smaller piece of it. The system as it sets has almost cut out the end consumer entirely so the producers are about the only people left with a stake in improving it.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com | | Back to Top | | |
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JRuland
Stablehand
Date Joined Mar 2005
Total Posts : 43
| Posted 8/2/2005 11:27 AM (GMT -5) | | quote:
Only pressure from the major publishers is ever likely to change that but even when they address the issues they do so in a way as to try to cut for themselves a bigger piece of a smaller pie.
Well said, I agree with you entirely. J.K. Rowling had her first Harry Potter book rejected by the first publisher she went to because the book wasn't a guaranteed sell. But Rowling has done something that the publishers would love to do yet normally don't dare, and I'm not just talking about numbers; she has reached out to people who don't normally read for entertainment.
I recently asked a coworker if he was a Harry Potter fan and he said yes, he bought the new book the weekend it came out. I asked him if he normally read for entertainment and he said no, pretty much just Harry Potter. The market for fiction exists if publishers and writers know what to give consumers. And usually, consumers themselves don't know exactly what they want to read until they get it. Fiction sales would absolutely explode if more writers went the way of Rowling, Clancy, and Crichton and figured out what consumers want to read, and gave it to them.
I'm not saying we should all sell out and write what we don't want to write about just for money, but I believe that if we want to grow the industry, this needs to be done to a certain extent.
I'd love to hear your thoughts. | | Back to Top | | |
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Edward Knight
Jack of all Trades and Master of None
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1039
| Posted 8/21/2005 5:23 AM (GMT -5) | | Hello Jonathan,
Glad to hear from you.
It's all about marketing. I think Rowling got lucky in a few inteviews, said the right things to get a little notice, did a few talk shows and came over well. Publishers like writers who get a little publicity on their own, so her publisher started pumping a few dollars into selling Harry Potter. It mushroomed from there. The point I guess I'm trying to make is that it still starts with the writer. First, they have to have a good book. I don't mean it has to be fantastic, just pretty good. Then the writer has to sell it. The publishing world is different than it once was. More and more writers are put in charge of their own destiny as far as marketing goes. Getting published is just getting your foot in the door. Publishers do very little in regard to marketing any more. They expect the writers to push the sell. Rowling was in the right place at the right time, said the right things and boom-she became a celebrity. With most new writers the big houses don't even pay for signing tour expenses. Writers are expected to do that out of pocket. Many new writers use every dime they make on their books to hire a publicists and go on tours.
Big houses still have this notion that reviews sell books. Reviews might help sell books to people that already read, but it doesn't expand the market. People who aren't reading books certainly aren't reading reviews. Television (and radio to a smaller degree) are what it takes to become a writer of prestigue. Either that or somebody has to turn your book into a blockbuster movie. Now that'll put a writer on top in a hurry.
I believe the future of the publishing world lies in the hands of childrens book publishers. We can't change the adult mindset to suddenly get grownups reading again. We can attampt to get kids to read for pleasure and then try to keep them reading as they grow up. I've been teaching for 20 years. I can say that in the last five years or so I believe kids are reading more and enjoying it better than they did in the past few decades. The next few generations will be a better market. I believe the video game fad is finally burning out a little. Kids are reading, challenging themselves with longer books from better writers. I much prefer the Harry Potter craze to the Goosebumps tripe they were so hot about a decade ago. Kids are reading real books rather than 40 page tidbits that are generally just stupid.
Edward Knight
Editor
Journey Books Publishing
Amazing Journeys Magazine
http://www.journeybookspublishing.com
http://www.journeybooksonline.com | | Back to Top | | |
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erazmus
Master
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4549
| Posted 8/21/2005 4:47 PM (GMT -5) | | I think that there is something to the 'right place and right time and just got lucky' theory. It helps to have a good product. It also helps to keep plugging away when you have a piece of work that you believe in even when nobody elsee seems too.
Harkening back to another semi-current topic here on the board I'm struck with the similarities between J.K.R.'s success and that of Terry Brooks' _Shanara_ series. Niether was/is so well written as to set the world on its ear yet each managed to do very, very well indeed. The difference in what each writer achieved financially is mostly centered on media not dealing with the printed word and merchandizing tied in with it. (Rowling could _give_ her book royalties away and still be worth half a billion dollars- gotta love those Harry Potter notebooks et al.) I am somehwhat dismayed at major publishers not scrambling like mad to capitolize on the Harry Potter phenom to get people to start reading more books for pleasure. Its not that I see so many missed opportunities because I'm not sure what would work, its that they are not trying everything under the sun to see what works.
Ed, I understand how you feel about R.L. Stines work but their was and is a place for that as well and I think it may have paved the way to the idea of Harry Potter, not in the minds of publishers so much as in the minds of kids. I'd like to see some work that landed somewhere in the middle of those two myself. Not the weighty bricks of Potter, not the pamphlet size of Stine. Nice, exciting, well written books in the sixty-five to eighty thousand word range that people wouldn't feel stupid laying out eleven-twelve bucks for. Right now anything my kids asked for to read I'd be pleased to get them. I have a 16y.o. working through Hunter S. Thompson. As long as it doesn't have a sound track its a step in the right direction.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Two Ravens" in Amazing Journeys Magazine coming Sept. 05 | | Back to Top | | |
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Edward Knight
Jack of all Trades and Master of None
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1039
| Posted 8/22/2005 2:39 AM (GMT -5) | | I've noticed a lot of kids reading Gary Paulson lately. Makes me wonder if there isn't a stronger market for YA adventure fiction that's being overlooked. Books like Hatchet are popular with the middle school kids. A lot are reading O.S. Card, all the Ender books, as well. Like Stine's horror fad, I wonder how long fantasy will be at the top of young readers' list. It seems strong right now, but as the Potter books close, will fantasy still reign for kids or will it dimenish again and some other genre or sub-genre take its place.
Edward Knight
Editor
Journey Books Publishing
Amazing Journeys Magazine
http://www.journeybookspublishing.com
http://www.journeybooksonline.com | | Back to Top | | |
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erazmus
Master
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4549
| Posted 8/22/2005 11:18 AM (GMT -5) | | Ed,
What ever the kids will be reading It will be something other than what everybody who's not a kid thinks it will be. If you want to know what is going to be hot with kids next year ask one.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Two Ravens" in Amazing Journeys Magazine coming Sept. 05 | | Back to Top | | |
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JRuland
Stablehand
Date Joined Mar 2005
Total Posts : 43
| Posted 9/2/2005 9:57 AM (GMT -5) | | Ed, going back to what you said earlier about being in the right place at the right time, I do see what you mean. Rowling provided a supply to a rather frustrated demand. I don't think she ever intended to write exactly what people wanted to read--I think she just wrote what she wanted to write without even half a mind to its marketability, and it just happened to be what the market currently demanded most.
I do believe, however, that we as writers need to look at the success of recent bestsellers and write more along the lines of what the market demands. Then, of course, as you say, we need to promote what we write not just to hard-core readers, but to everyone who might be interested if we give them the product they didn't even know they wanted. | | Back to Top | | |
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Christopher Heath
Neophyte
Date Joined Dec 2004
Total Posts : 95
| Posted 9/2/2005 11:06 AM (GMT -5) | | | I remember someone commenting on one of these forums earlier that Rowling broke one of the rules: never submit a story about a young wizard and his adventures in a wizard school---because it is one of the most cliched storylines ever (along with rescuing the princess). Anyway, I laughed when I read that post, because I thought exactly the same thing, and have seen it listed numerous times among publisher's "things we don't want" lists. It's a crazy world. I don't understand the publishing industry, but I do know that most of what's being put on shelves today is total garbage---by my standards, anyway. Maybe the Harry Potter stuff is good for kids, let me check my charts, but I hate to see adults reading it. It's like seeing a grown man listening to The Backstreet Boys. You instantly lose all respect for that person. | | Back to Top | | |
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JRuland
Stablehand
Date Joined Mar 2005
Total Posts : 43
| Posted 9/2/2005 6:16 PM (GMT -5) | | quote:
Originally posted by Christopher Heath
I don't understand the publishing industry, but I do know that most of what's being put on shelves today is total garbage---by my standards, anyway. Maybe the Harry Potter stuff is good for kids, let me check my charts, but I hate to see adults reading it. It's like seeing a grown man listening to The Backstreet Boys. You instantly lose all respect for that person.
That's a strong statement to make about a book series that has sold more copies than any other in history. I agree that I personally would rather spend my reading time on something else--but that's just me. The amazing thing about Rowling's books--at least in my opinion--is the audience they have attracted. While I would not have much "respect" for a person who wasted an entire Saturday afternoon just flipping through channels from their couch, Rowling has gotten those people to instead spend that Saturday reading Harry Potter.
You mentioned the Backstreet Boys. The Backstreet Boys are a perfect example because they illustrate something the publishing industry just doesn't have: glamour. The media competing with fiction has painted reading as a pastime for nerds, but Harry Potter has glamour. It's like the TV show with the highest ratings--everybody's talking about it. Brainless though the Harry Potter books might seem, they are exactly what will expand the fiction market.
And I don't think they really are brainless. They might be cliche and almost pure entertainment, but I believe someone would benefit more from spending a Saturday reading a Harry Potter book than flipping through channels. | | Back to Top | | |
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Christopher Heath
Neophyte
Date Joined Dec 2004
Total Posts : 95
| Posted 9/3/2005 3:43 PM (GMT -5) | | J.,
A few points to make here.
"That's a strong statement to make about a book series that has sold more copies than any other in history."
If you're interested in sales figures and not quality of the material written, maybe it would seem like a strong statement.
"The amazing thing about Rowling's books--at least in my opinion--is the audience they have attracted."
Yeah, I'm amazed, too. It was written for adolescents and adults seem to latch onto it like it was made of gold.
"While I would not have much "respect" for a person who wasted an entire Saturday afternoon just flipping through channels from their couch, Rowling has gotten those people to instead spend that Saturday reading Harry Potter."
I think people need to realize that all television is not crap. If I watch a PBS program of Brian Greene's quest for the ultimate theory, I'd say that's time better spent then flipping through some Harry Potter pages (or take many Discovery programs, History channel, or even good movies). Granted, I've read The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene, but it's cool to see the program because it had new developments, and they were able to use all sorts of visual models you can't get from a book. So, there's advantages to different types of mediums. I've never bought into the argument that tv is bad, books are good. They're both mediums of value, with quality and garbage and everything in-between. I'd certainly encourage people to read, but I don't advise adults to read books geared towards adolescents.
"You mentioned the Backstreet Boys. The Backstreet Boys are a perfect example because they illustrate something the publishing industry just doesn't have: glamour."
Backstreet Boys are glamorous??? Again, for adolescents maybe.
"Brainless though the Harry Potter books might seem, they are exactly what will expand the fiction market."
I can't argue that, but it sends a message to the publishers---more of this type of writing, not just for kids, but for adults, too. I loved that The Lord of the Rings took off the way it did, and three great movies were made. Tolkien gets bashed a lot on these boards, I think more because of how he has influenced a lot of crap, than for his actual work. Though there are passages in LOTR that make me cringe, overall, it's quite good. Anyway, I'd much rather see books like LOTR championing a return to reading as a pastime for adults. Harry Potter is fine for kids, I suppose (I'm not even quite certain about that---I read LOTR in 3rd grade, and I'm glad Harry Potter wasn't around, though I suppose Chronicles of Narnia might have been an equivalent, but even that is probably of higher caliber). Anyway, be careful what you wish for. I'm excited whenever I hear news about say Moorcock's or Wagner's works being turned into movies. These are the novels that should be glamorized into movies, so people will go back and read the books ala Tolkien and LOTR.
You know, you're entitled to your opinion and I respect that, but I think our views are a little different. You mentioned Sir Arthur C. Clarke as one of your favorite writers so we can certainly agree that he's one of the greats! I hope you stick around on these message boards; there are a lot of great guys (and gals) on here and some lively discussions. Take care.
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JRuland
Stablehand
Date Joined Mar 2005
Total Posts : 43
| Posted 9/3/2005 8:51 PM (GMT -5) | |
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