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Kane
Neophyte

Date Joined Jan 2005
Total Posts : 57

Posted 4/5/2008 2:13 PM (GMT -4)

nathan said...

One of the semminal points in Conan's life that's never told is how as a 16 year old he climbed the walls of the Aquilonian outpost with a "milling blood mad mob" (or something) and slaughtered the garrison--forming a Goth/visigoth and Roman parralel as the world went from Imprerial Age to Dark Age. --so good point.

Okay, okay, I know I just inserted a thread hijack but it was a Conan one.

Several years ago Harry Turtledove was hired to write the story of a teenage Conan taking part in that raid. IIRC, the title was Conan of Venarium, and it was one of the worse pastiches ever written about Conan.

In essence Turtledove turned what could have been a rousing S&S story into a pale retelling of Gibson's Braveheart.

On top of that he completely ignored the material that Howard had laid out in the original stories. He ignored established locations, added elements that had no place in the Hyborian setting, and included a mother/son relationship that attempted to reflect the relationship that Howard had with his own mother.

This last part turned Conan from a child born of barbaric wilderness into a simpering momma's boy who turns to violence as a way of handling his mother's illness.

Over on conan.com not a single member who had read the book had anything good to say about it.

"I vanquished Law once, I'll conquer yet again--
And force upon Mankind the Freedom he fears--
And dead gods I will again defy…"

James Enge
Maker

Date Joined Jan 2006
Total Posts : 208

Posted 4/5/2008 2:24 PM (GMT -4)

Janrae: I agree in a way that there's no such thing as a barbarian. Barbarism is a civilized idea: anyone who says that he's a barbarian is doing it in the context of a civilization. (The earliest example I know of is actually a Roman writer, Plautus--back when barbaros meant "Non-Greek," including the Romans.) But I think we can say the Goths were less civilized than the Romans, because they didn't organize their culture in cities (not because they had worse table manners or because they wore trousers or whatever one's cultural standards of barbarism are). Theodoric the Great was certainly a better and more humane ruler than Italy had seen for centuries. But his reign was possible because he inherited a millennium-old confederation of cities from the Romans. Without that Theodoric wouldn't have been able to govern, and we probably wouldn't know the difference between a Visigoth and an Ostrogoth.

I mention Theodoric partly because he becomes a sword-and-sorcery hero--Dietrich von Bern in medieval legend.

James Enge
http://jamesenge.com/

"A Covenant with Death" in Flashing Swords
"The Lawless Hours" in Black Gate 11
"The Gordian Stone" in Every Day Fiction
"The Red Worm's Way" forthcoming in Return of the Sword
"Payment in Full" forthcoming in Black Gate

Charles Gramlich
Acolyte

Date Joined Aug 2007
Total Posts : 269

Posted 4/5/2008 2:42 PM (GMT -4)

Personally, I think that trying to break new ground for new ground's sake is not likely to be successful. Even if it worked for the writer, the readers would not be ready to experience completely new ground. Change needs to be organic, and grow out of what has been planted before. I don't want to read another story exactly like I've read before, but the key word is "exactly." I don't mind at all reading another basic storyline that I've seen before as long as the writer brings their own unique take to it and it has a freshness that isn't totally predictable.

Charles Gramlich

http://charlesgramlich.blogspot.com/

Swashbuckler
One-man sword-and-sorcery machine

Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 1255

Posted 4/5/2008 3:36 PM (GMT -4)

Kane: I started to read that Turtledove book a while back. I didn't get very far into it. Sounds like I didn't miss much by skipping the rest.

James: Got any recommended reading for me regarding Dietrich von Bern? (I figure asking you is probably more efficient than asking Google ...)

Steve Goble

Visit my blog, Swords Against Boredom, for news on published fiction and upcoming stories.

James Enge
Maker

Date Joined Jan 2006
Total Posts : 208

Posted 4/5/2008 3:50 PM (GMT -4)

Hey Steve: I remember liking the Old Norse Thidrek's Saga. (If an Icelander can't tell a story well, it's probably not that good a story anyway.) It was when I was reading that that I found out the Thidrek = Dietrich = Theodoric and was stunned. I associated Theodoric with Gibbon's Decline & Fall and De Camp's Lest Darkness Fall, so seeing him running around as the saga-hero made the book into a weird crossover nightmare--like Captain Kirk battling Nazgûl or something.

[edited to add:] I meant that as praise, but maybe it didn't sound like it.

Swashbuckler
One-man sword-and-sorcery machine

Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 1255

Posted 4/5/2008 4:41 PM (GMT -4)

James: Thanks, sir. I've read Njal's Saga and a few others, and I like the whole saga thing. I shall get my hands on that one.

Oh, and Kirk versus Nazgul? I'd totally watch that.

Steve Goble

Visit my blog, Swords Against Boredom, for news on published fiction and upcoming stories.

James Enge
Maker

Date Joined Jan 2006
Total Posts : 208

Posted 4/5/2008 4:49 PM (GMT -4)

Njal's Saga is great! My favorite part is when Skarp-Hethinn is running around insulting all the people whose help they need. Or when Gunnar is fighting for his life and Hallgerd--never mind; I guess I have lots of favorite parts.

The Kirk-vs. Nazgûl thing formed the core of my most cherished nightmare, fuelled by Halloween candy and monster-movies sometime in the early 70s.

H.P. Lovesauce
Necronomicondiment

Date Joined Jul 2007
Total Posts : 584

Posted 4/5/2008 5:48 PM (GMT -4)

James Enge said...
The Kirk-vs. Nazgûl thing formed the core of my most cherished nightmare, fuelled by Halloween candy and monster-movies sometime in the early 70s.

Must've been some good candy.

I'm just imagining a ragged black cloak whipping around the two locked in the standard trek-fu grapple.

It just occurred to me that none of us have made the "outlaw biker" connection yet.

Bruce Durham
Crom's Administrator & Drinking Buddy

Date Joined Jan 2005
Total Posts : 613

Posted 4/5/2008 7:01 PM (GMT -4)

Steven the Git said...
Beyond the Black River - is that the one with the outpost on the edge of the land of savages. I think done from someone else's view point as well. Has a very frontier feel. Was excellent to read.

Yes. The story is told from the POV of Balthus. Conan appears several pages in.

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Steven the Git
Neophyte

Date Joined Nov 2007
Total Posts : 195

Posted 4/5/2008 8:42 PM (GMT -4)

Bruce Durham said...

Yes. The story is told from the POV of Balthus. Conan appears several pages in.

Then will say it again, an excellent story. Reminds me of my favourite Bond book, which is the Spy Who Loved Me. That is also from the point of view of someone else, and it is great to read such defined characters taking a side step in 'their' books. Very interesting ways to show them to us again.

Kirk vs a Nazgul! Better be a pit of sand to wrestle in, and the appropiate music

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