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| SFReader Forums > SFReader > Ask The Expert > Breaking new ground in S&S | Forum Quick Jump
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Nik
Adept
      
Date Joined Feb 2007
Total Posts : 774
| Posted 4/1/2008 10:24 PM (GMT -4) |   | I'm with Daniel and CW and several others on this. Just tell the story well. I bet if you took an old S&S tale, changed the characters' names, and described each action and event in a way that's never been used--with language put together in a way never before seen--you'd have an original story. And memorable.
Nicholas Ian Hawkins
Forthcoming
"Knowledge and Dust," in Magic & Mechanica, from Ricasso Press, Spring 2008
Published
"What Heroes Leave Behind," in Return of the Sword, Flashing Swords Press, March 2008
"The Weald Maiden's Will," in Every Day Fiction, March 5, 2008
"Relativity," in FLASHSHOT, September 28, 2007
Visit my website, Trampler of Beautiful Phrases, at nihawkins.wordpress.com | | Back to Top | | |
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Bruce Durham
Crom's Administrator & Drinking Buddy
Date Joined Jan 2005
Total Posts : 613
| Posted 4/2/2008 1:21 AM (GMT -4) | | I've always been confused with the 'doesn't rise above the genre' mindset. If I read an S&S tale, I expect warriors and weapons and magic and monsters. Since every idea has been done to death, it comes down to how well the same old idea is told anew. I'll take a standard storyline that's well-written over something that has a unique twist but reads like a druggie's txt msg. If it's a well-written story with a unique twist, then grand, but odds are it slips into another genre. Take away the magic and S&S becomes (alt) History. Substitute guns and S&S becomes a western. Place it in a modern setting and S&S becomes (shudder) Urban Fantasy. The line between genres is thin and often requires only the simplest renaming of conventions.
I'm not sure why S&S is regularly subjected to the 'trope' bias. It's not like it's alone out there in writing land. Let's see, a mystery starts with a body/missing heiress/insert other here; a cigar chomping PI with no sense of humour who has a drinking problem, cash flow concerns, and an ex-wife who's a stripper. A western has a cattle baron/notorious outlaw/crooked sheriff, a cigar chomping lone cowboy with no sense of humour who drifts from town to town and is tossed in jail for no reason/mistaken for a killer/returns home after 20 years on the trail and who ultimately kills all of the bad-guys with 6 bullets. An adventure story has a kidnapped nuclear scientist with a stunning daughter/an evil crime lord/a missing microfiche, a tired spy/ex-Delta Force/a secretly trained gov't specialist, fun gadgets, and at least once in the story has the snot beat out him before wiping out the equivalent of a small African nation while saving the day.
The way I see it, every genre has its tropes and cliches. I'm not sure why, or better yet, how, we are supposed to 'rise above the genre mindset' without it becoming something else entirely different, and ultimately, unsatisfying.
As far as I'm concerned, my tales are plot driven love stories with elements of S&S, adventure, and horror populated with what I like to think are interesting characters. But then, I'm a tad biased... 
Come visit the Community Forums of CPI's Official Site of Conan author Robert E. Howard
Recently published: Valley of Bones in Return of the Sword, Night of the Meld in Flashing Swords #9, Marathon in Issue #10 of Paradox, Kalini Steel in Freehold: Southern Storm, Fool's Treasure in Freehold: The Protector and Old Havana in When the World Runs Thin
Upcoming: Abuse of Power in Flashing Swords #10 and Deluge in the Special Summer Issue of Flashing Swords
www.brucedurham.ca | | Back to Top | | |
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R. L. Copple
Acolyte
Date Joined Mar 2007
Total Posts : 221
| Posted 4/2/2008 2:23 AM (GMT -4) | | As one who likes a good and unexpected view on things in a story, and I guess I tend to write that way (current zombie story up at Fear and Trembling, "Confessions of a Zombie's Wife" probably being a good example of that,) I think it boils down to this.
There's average, there's good, and then there's wow. Whatever genre you're writing in, most likely the plot and characters have been done before. Whaever genre you're writing in, I'll bet no one has done it the way you have or can. As with anything, like Simon will tell contestants on American Idol, if you don't make it yours, put your stamp on it, then its like everything else that's been done before. If you do, it is unique and original, no matter how cliched the plot or characters are.
That's what I hear Jordan saying, essentially. Not that one has to transcend the genre, but if one wants to make their mark, you'll have to lift your let and let 'er rip. Then you're helping to add to the genre something fresh, you're own particular outlook on life. Otherwise, it is too much like everything else out there, and if that's true, then there's not much point in reading it. You've already read it.
But I do agree as well, if you innovate enough, you move outside the genre. But putting our own original stamp on a story in a genre, that's what we should all aspire to, whether we hit it or not.
R. L. Copple
blog.rlcopple.com
www.raygunradio.com
www.haruah.com
Infinite Realities available at Amazon.com | | Back to Top | | |
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erazmus
Master
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4496
| Posted 4/2/2008 4:30 AM (GMT -4) | | I can't write a Michael Moorcock story, and he can't write a Michael Turner story. Leaving aside the obvious (why would he want too?) every story I write is mine, with my own twisted take on life and the human condition.
When I write flash, I tend to paint with a broad brush and try to elicit an emotional response from the reader, and then stop. If I make you angry or sad or scared, I'm done. To me, thats flash. Only rarely do I try to do more in less than a thousand words, and most of my flash is considerably less. Some drifts down to micro-fiction.
When I'm writing longer works I'm usually just trying to entertain. This isn't as light a task as some would make it out to be-- there isn't much "mere" to entertainment. You have to engage the reader on some level, pleasing words and phrases strung together don't often cut it. Only rarely do I set out to make the reader think--but I often make the reader think anyway. You can not create a character without commenting on the human condition.
S&S is still storytelling, the people in well written S&S are people, maybe not exactly like you and I but mostly so. They strap on their bunny furs one leg at a time. (hmmnn, that metaphor doesn't quite work, does it?) If a story is about a fur-diapered barbarian confronting a monster, it is still different from any other barbarian confronting a monster story. Conan may have killed a monster or two, as did Elak and Fafred and Thongor (and Brak, and Kane, and Cormac--oh please somebody stop me!) but that has little bearing on _this_ barabrian and how he handles _this_ monster. Even if the story is a pastiche, it will come out different (not nec. better, but different).
Several time a week this baseball season, a right-handed power pitcher will face a power hitting lefty with runners in scoring position and the game on the line. Does the fact that Bob Feller faced Joe Dimaggio in 1940 have anything to do with the tension of these games? Does that legendary confrontation take anything away?
In my mind, it only adds to it. It provides a sense of history and continuety to the confrontation, even when tonights game falls short of the great at-bats of yesteryear. And its the same thing with S&S. If the story is the barbarian fights a monster, and its well crafted enough that I care about the barbarian and I'm interested in how he defeats, or escapes, or is eaten by, the monster, then that is enough. At least, it may be. I hope an author will put more meat on it than that, and as an editor I certainly try to select stories that have more going for them than this bare-bones description makes it sound, but I do not need to have the sub-genre redefined to have a good time reading it.
Nor should I. There is nothing wrong with the genre, not in my opinion. Elseways, why would I be reading it. It isn't a class assignment, I don't have a dead-line for turning in a review. I enjoy, or at least think I will enjoy, this story. Reviewers can pine for ground-breaking work, afterall its great to discover something significant and shout it out to the world. But need we artfully reinvent everything we read every few months to enjoy it?
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Dutchman Rescue"in Continuum SF #6
www.continuumsciencefiction.com/orders.htm
"An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern" in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises:
www.fantasistent.com/books/anthologies/BASH.php
"Stains" in Tales of the Talisman 3-1 www.zianet.com/hadrosaur/index.html
"Morning Coffee" in Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/morning-coffee-by-michael-d-turner/
"The Jewel Below" in Flashing Swords
flashingswords.sfreader.com/issues/issue8/vol2-iss8-05.htm
"Happy Landings" in Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/happy-landings-by-michael-d-turner/
"Teller of Tales" in Every day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/teller-of-tales-by-michael-d-turner/
Read "Silver Shells" In Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/silver-shells-by-michael-d-turner/ | | Back to Top | | |
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RHFay
Sage
Date Joined Nov 2007
Total Posts : 1702
| Posted 4/2/2008 1:26 PM (GMT -4) | |
I certainly agree that, as a writer, you have to put your own individual stamp on things. You certainly should write like yourself, not like other authors.
However, I don't personally believe that the "personal stamp" need necessarily be a "new twist on an old genre trope". I don't think the two things are always the same.
Take my poetry, for instance. I don't tend to write like a lot of the other speculative poets out there. I've noticed that my poetry tends to be a bit different. Even one editor commented that my poetry differed from the usual "contemporary" submissions. Now, being different from what's out there right now isn't necessarily the same as being a "new twist". My poems are different, in part, because they are often inspired by traditional lore, and the works of the poets of yore. Yes, I've written a few "psycho killer" pieces, but I often write about old castles and the darker side of fairyland. Trust me, I'm not the first to write about such things, and I've had plenty of rejections stating "well written, but doesn't tell us anything new".
As another example, take the current trend with vampires. Vampires have become sexier and more "chic" over time. The vampires of lore were dreadful animated corpses. Even Dracula, often cited as one of the first "sexy" vampires, wasn't really that "sexy" until the story was translated to the stage and screen (read Harker's description of the count if you have any doubts). And once the erotic undercurrents came to the surface, forget it! Vampires became sex objects.
A return to the dreadful, monstrous vampires of lore might seem like a "new twist" today amidst all the stories about sexy vampires and vampire anti-heroes. In my mind, what made Salem's Lot stand out back when I read it was the fact that King did indeed return to more "monstrous" vampires. This aspect was even more obvious in the television miniseries based on the book. It wasn't so much a "new twist on an old trope" as a return to the traditional, a ressurection of an old take on a genre trope.
Depending upon the state of the market, and depending upon people's tastes, a return to the traditional can work.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
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nathan
Sage
Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 2111
| Posted 4/2/2008 2:17 PM (GMT -4) | |
Bruce Durham said...
An adventure story has a kidnapped nuclear scientist with a stunning daughter/an evil crime lord/a missing microfiche, a tired spy/ex-Delta Force/a secretly trained gov't specialist, fun gadgets, and at least once in the story has the snot beat out him before wiping out the equivalent of a small African nation while saving the day.
Ah, Bruce you've been reading my books  . Okay, okay, the stunning daughter almost always has another and often murderous agenda of her own--but my shrink says this is not Freudian and merely convention.
I guess it should be noted as a general statement that I don't think Jordan is objectively wrong or some such--he's talking about what he likes and what he feels is a rewarding reading experience.
Most of my points have to do with reviewers telling wouldbe readers who are looking for genre fiction that a story "is genre fiction" as if it were a pejorgative to be so.
And also how often "bad writing" is often used synonymously with "staying in trophes" if you will. I love a variation of a lone violent man of action tangling with Cthulu or something like that--but I can except people tired of reading that. My 'beef' (or whatever) is more with reviewers.
VIEW IMAGE"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages." | | Back to Top | | |
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nathan
Sage
Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 2111
| Posted 4/2/2008 2:26 PM (GMT -4) | |
RHFay said...
A return to the dreadful, monstrous vampires of lore might seem like a "new twist" today amidst all the stories about sexy vampires and vampire anti-heroes. In my mind, what made Salem's Lot stand out back when I read it was the fact that King did indeed return to more "monstrous" vampires. This aspect was even more obvious in the television miniseries based on the book. It wasn't so much a "new twist on an old trope" as a return to the traditional, a ressurection of an old take on a genre trope.
Depending upon the state of the market, and depending upon people's tastes, a return to the traditional can work. I like you. I'm only pointing this out because I'm almost 40 a SK fan and a bit of a book dork. Ok, drop the 'bit' qualifier.
If you eliminate *some* of the way Dracula was described then mostly the popular concept of vamps at the time Lot came out was off a powerful head man--not sexy like Lesat but cult leader--and a bunch of servants who were basically "fast zombies." What made Lot such a groundbreaking work for the time was the (okay the characterization) Our Town blue collar spin on a horror story.
Super sexy vamps didn't start (well get big) until Anne Rice came along several years later.
But having been all lawerly let me hasten to add I happen to agree with your point. Brian Lumley and the bit of EE Knights vamp stuff I've read, read a little closer to the icky fast zombie style than Brad Pitt in leatherpants type that is so in profusion today.
And appear a little unique among the Laura K Hamilton copies for their alliegences to older trophes about vamps.
VIEW IMAGE"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages." | | Back to Top | | |
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nathan
Sage
Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 2111
| Posted 4/2/2008 2:31 PM (GMT -4) | |
Jordan Lapp said...
I guess it should be noted as a general statement that I don't think Jordan is objectively wrong or some such--he's talking about what he likes and what he feels is a rewarding reading experience.
Given the choice between two equally well-written stories, both written within the genre, but one is new and explores something you've never seen done before.... which would you pick?
I could try and be smart and break this all down into sub compartments of arguments--but I'm actually not arguing.
So, if it were still within genre and *all other* factors were in play at equal levels then sure I'd go with the new take.
Put this way I agree with what your saying. I don't think it is a counter-argument to any of my general points so I don't feel hypocritical--but sure I'd pick up the new spin to see what was what.
VIEW IMAGE"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages." | | Back to Top | | |
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James Enge
Maker
Date Joined Jan 2006
Total Posts : 208
| Posted 4/2/2008 2:59 PM (GMT -4) | | I really can't agree about Anne Rice inventing the sexy vampire. Look at the way Lucy Westenra is described in the original Dracula novel, for instance, or what vamp means in the early 20th C. What Rice did was update the sexiness (since the standards on these things change frequently) and take a pro-vampire stance.
Novelty itself doesn't impress me as a reader, but impact does, and something which is overfamiliar can lose its impact. That's what Jordan seems to be getting at (correct me if I'm wrong), and I'm inclined to agree. On the other hand, I think genre, and the tropes of genre, can have impact as well. For maximum impact there should be a tension between the novel and the familiar, the new and the known.
There's also the fact that an author who uses a barbarian, for instance, is inviting comparison to REH, and that's a pretty high hurdle to clear. Someone is supposed to have teased Vergil about stealing from Homer and he said, "Try it yourself sometime. It's easier to steal Hercules' club than one of Homer's lines." If you can get away with it, it's obviously something to brag about, but it's not the only thing worth doing.
James Enge
http://jamesenge.com/
"A Covenant with Death" in Flashing Swords
"The Lawless Hours" in Black Gate 11
"The Gordian Stone" in Every Day Fiction
"The Red Worm's Way" forthcoming in Return of the Sword
"Payment in Full" forthcoming in Black Gate | | Back to Top | | |
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nathan
Sage
Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 2111
| Posted 4/2/2008 3:05 PM (GMT -4) | |
James Enge said...
I really can't agree about Anne Rice inventing the sexy vampire. Look at the way Lucy Westenra is described in the original Dracula novel, for instance, or what vamp means in the early 20th C. What Rice did was update the sexiness (since the standards on these things change frequently) and take a pro-vampire stance.
No, this is true.
I did say disregard *some* of what was in Dracula in my post. Female vampires were almost always sexy right from the get go, I admit freely--and dracula was often seen as a Byronic character. But the movies and books I remember from the 70's had more of that fast zombie vibe and King was working within that--but in his own voice.
Then Rice hit like Fat Boy on Hiroshima and all you could find were stories about uber-cool, uber-sexy gender ambiguous Clavin Klein models with fangs.
And during this time, just below the radar but making a living Brian Lumlly was writting against type--though a little closer to what SK had in Lot.
VIEW IMAGE"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages." | | Back to Top | | |
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erazmus
Master
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4496
| Posted 4/2/2008 3:13 PM (GMT -4) | | | | |
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nathan
Sage
Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 2111
| Posted 4/2/2008 3:15 PM (GMT -4) | |
Jordan Lapp said...
And hell, when was the last time you saw a vampire movie where the (usually female) vampire actually drank blood???? I kept waiting for that in Ultraviolet, but it never happened.
You are much more likely to see her rub against another girl like a cat or perhaps kiss her.
As an aside the first story I ever sold for (then) pro-rates was a vampire story to Bloodlust-UK. I read "brave" story after social courageous story about bisexual manorexia stricken Kurt Cobains turned to lords of the night and I was immediatly moved to write a story about THIS guy.
I got a curt acceptence. Then I got a curt request to mention my motivation, I did so, outlinning what I said above. Then I got nothing. I've had friendlier rejections by far than I did that acceptance. Check cashed fine though.
VIEW IMAGE
"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages." | | Back to Top | | |
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