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Richard Stanbery
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   Posted 8/26/2008 10:30 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
So, I guess that you could say that what we now may consider as fantasy might have once been considered historical fiction? Things change, notions change, people change. It all depends on the point of view of the reader.
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RHFay
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   Posted 8/18/2008 12:12 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks!

Yes, the forces of Brian Boru fought those of King Sigtrygg Silkybeard of Dublin and his Leinstermen allies (who probably outnumbered the Norsemen) at the famous battle of Clontarf, which took place on Good Friday in the year 1014.


"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!" 
 
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions 
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Richard Stanbery
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   Posted 8/16/2008 10:33 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

 Good point, Anthony, kings did wish to be associated with a former king of glorious stature and reputation. Which brings me to a crazy thought, Could it be possible that Alfred approved of the continuation of the Arthurian stories? Would he have had a hand in preserving them, or maybe even translating them himself, as he could read and write? After all, Alfred did find himself with his back up against the wall a few times, and he could use a hero.

As to the other point about the Norse side of Ruriks line, I agree, it is difficult. I have searched in vain for some time to pinpoint this beyond doubt. I have not found an english webpage for the Heimskringla that will open for me. I think this may be a place of clues for me, if I could find it. 

What about Silkbeard of the Dublin episode? Was he a relation to Harold Hardruler? I may be getting these Vikings mixed up, as I am thinking that Silkbeard was the foe of Brian Boru. I wish I could find some better research sites for these guys. I be sorely vexed with frustration with trying to organize the lines of the Norse royalty. 

By the way, Mr. Fay, I liked that article about Stamford Bridge. You certainly did a great job with that.

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Anthony G Williams
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   Posted 8/16/2008 7:19 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Richard Stanbery said...
          Now, if the story was invented just as a story that could be sold to a mass market, then what was the motive? There was no mass market in the middle ages fot sci-fi or fantasy books. Few could read, and there may have only been a few thousand books in all of Europe, most of them Bibles. About the only way to get a book written then was to go to a monastery and ask the monks to make you one (by hand).
     Now, if most of the literate people were monks or clerics, then why did they show an interest in the Arthurian cycles, Beowulf, or the Canterbury Tales? Why would monks in a manostic order spend so much time writing these storeis down to be preserved?
As I understand it, the myth was preserved and promoted for political reasons: kings wanted to be associated with a glorious past, it gave them more (apparent) legitimacy and status.
 
The original question was about Arthurian fiction, so I'll take the opportunity to recommend Richard Monaco's Grail War series. It's a very long time since I read them, but as I recall they are a realistic and gritty take on the tales, quite the best I've read. They're still on my shelf so I must re-read them sometime.
 


Tony Williams
Scales (2007), The Foresight War (2004)
Homepage: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk

SFF Blog: http://sciencefictionfantasy.blogspot.com/


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RHFay
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   Posted 8/16/2008 12:52 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Here's a link to excerpts from the Saga of Harald Hardrade:

http://www.shsu.edu/~his_ncp/Hardrada.html

 


"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!" 
 
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions 
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RHFay
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   Posted 8/16/2008 12:40 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Keep in mind, Hardrada was more of a descriptive name than a family name. His actual name was Harald Sigurdsson. You may perhaps, just perhaps, find more information regarding his family under that name. He was the younger brother of King Olaf of Norway.

Other versions of his name: Haraldr inn Harðráði, Haraldr Sigurðarson (from the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography.)

One possibly questionable source I found on-line stated that Rurik (or Rorik) was born in Friesland (now Holland), and moved from Jutland to Russia. The truth of Rurik's origins may be so clouded in uncertainty and legend that we may never know much about the Scandinavian side of his family tree. I seriously doubt that there was a close family connection between Harald Hardrada and Rurik.


"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!" 
 
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions 
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Richard Stanbery
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   Posted 8/15/2008 11:21 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
 Thanks for the good info, guys. Yes, the timelines are different, but what I was looking for was a family relation through the Norwegian royalty? I find it hard to tell if a name from one source is supposed to be the same person when cited from a different source, as the spellings are sometimes different for the Nordic names when cited by a non-Nordic source( Ie Hregar, Rothgar, Hrothgar, Hreathgar, Hroethgar, Hroethgear,etc)
The old English writings are confusing, as the earliest English used a type of Old English runic alphabet, and even when the old English "got modernized" with Latin styled letters, the spelling was sometimes a thing to be suffered through.
     Any ideas as to whether Harold Hadrada was a relation to Rurik, or from the same family line? I'm trying really hard to get it straight. By the way. does anyone know where I can get a copy of the Heimskringla to read online? (In modern English)Thanks Guys!turn
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RHFay
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   Posted 8/15/2008 11:55 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Let's see, Harald Hardrada died in 1066. Rurik died circa 879. That's almost two centuries separating the two. Both apparently did have some connection to the "Varangians". Harald served in the Byzantine emperor's Varangian guard and gained a great reputation as a warrior. Rurik was apparently one of the Varangians (perhaps a more general term in this case meaning Scandinavian merchants and mercenaries that settled in the East) asked by the native Slavs to rule.

Any link made between the two would be a very broad generalization at best.

By the way, I talk a little bit about Harald Hardrada in my myArmoury article "The Battle of Stamford Bridge":

http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_battle_stamford.html

It contains some details about Harald's background that I gleaned from various sources. Harald was apparently a well-travelled warrior.


"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!" 
 
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions 
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tchernabyelo
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   Posted 8/15/2008 9:14 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
It's a long time since I read Harald's Saga, but it's pretty conclusive about him having served as a Varangian. Of course, it's possible the narrator/author conflated the activities of other (generic or specific) individuals into the life of the person he wanted to hagiographise...

However, the timescale hardly matches Rurik. There's no doubt that the Rus link was how the Varangians came to be (and I have fiction based pretty much in a kind of parallel "Vikings-in-Slavland" setting), and the accounts of Ibn Fadlan give us most of the reliable information for the cultural background (which, indeed, has been extrapolated as being applicable to the Norwegian/Danish vikings, without much evidence, and it looks to by more syncretic with Asiatic shamanism to me, rather than a specific Norse cultural motif).


Brian Dolton
 
Land Of Wind And Ghosts stories:
"The Box Of Beautiful Things" - IGMS#3
"The Man Who Was Never Afraid" - Abyss and Apex #20
"At Blue Crane Falls" - Abyss and Apex #25
"Where No Wind Blows" - Staffs & Starships #2
"The Gray World" - Every Day Fiction (June 1st 2008) 
"What The Sea Refuses" - Black Gate (forthcoming)
"What The Heart Bears" - Black Gate (forthcoming)
"Above The Clouds" - Paper Blossoms, Sharpened Steel (forthcoming)
"Three Out Of Four" - Sorcerous Signals Feb-Apr 08 
"The Dragon Path" - Fictitious Force #5
"The Last Arrow Of Liang Xi" - Darwin's Evolutions (forthcoming)
 
Stories in other settings:
"The Unicorn Hunter" - OG's Speculative Fiction #8
"Call Centre" - Necrotic Tissue #1
"When Winter Came" - ASIM #32
"Cold Fire" - Flashing Swords #9, The Age Of Blood And Snow (forthcoming) 
"If We Were Briar Roses" - Every Day Fiction (July 9th 2008)
"St. Saviour And The Devil's Dandy" - Flashing Swords (forthcoming)
"In This City" - Fantasy Magazine (forthcoming)

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Richard Stanbery
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   Posted 8/14/2008 10:33 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
     You got it! This is the Rurik that I was talking about. I am trying to wade through the different accounts of his history to find out what was his ties, if any, to Harold Hadrada. Some legends tell me one thing, and some another. Anybody that has ever done research on this ancient stuff knows that there can be more than one history.
     I know that Harold Hadrada was reported to have fought in Sicily and the Holy Land, I have found reports that he served as a Verangian in the Rus, and other sources tell me differing stories. So, this is kind of like the Arthurian legends in that there are sometimes more than one history to go by, I guess depending upon who is telling the story.
     There may be some ancient information from Byzantine sources. Any ideas?
 
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RHFay
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   Posted 8/14/2008 2:00 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Richard Stanbery said...
Tchernabyelo, Tell me something. What do you know of Prince Rurik, by the way?
Would the Rurik you're referring to be the quasi-legendary Varangian/Viking founder of the Rus state, ruler of Novgorod, and progenitor of the Kievan Ryurik Dynasty, by any chance? scool
 
Just wonderin'.


"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!" 
 
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions 
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tchernabyelo
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   Posted 8/14/2008 10:28 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Not a thing.


Brian Dolton
 
Land Of Wind And Ghosts stories:
"The Box Of Beautiful Things" - IGMS#3
"The Man Who Was Never Afraid" - Abyss and Apex #20
"At Blue Crane Falls" - Abyss and Apex #25
"Where No Wind Blows" - Staffs & Starships #2
"The Gray World" - Every Day Fiction (June 1st 2008) 
"What The Sea Refuses" - Black Gate (forthcoming)
"What The Heart Bears" - Black Gate (forthcoming)
"Above The Clouds" - Paper Blossoms, Sharpened Steel (forthcoming)
"Three Out Of Four" - Sorcerous Signals Feb-Apr 08 
"The Dragon Path" - Fictitious Force #5
"The Last Arrow Of Liang Xi" - Darwin's Evolutions (forthcoming)
 
Stories in other settings:
"The Unicorn Hunter" - OG's Speculative Fiction #8
"Call Centre" - Necrotic Tissue #1
"When Winter Came" - ASIM #32
"Cold Fire" - Flashing Swords #9, The Age Of Blood And Snow (forthcoming) 
"If We Were Briar Roses" - Every Day Fiction (July 9th 2008)
"St. Saviour And The Devil's Dandy" - Flashing Swords (forthcoming)
"In This City" - Fantasy Magazine (forthcoming)

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Richard Stanbery
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   Posted 8/14/2008 1:26 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tchernabyelo, Tell me something. What do you know of Prince Rurik, by the way?
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tchernabyelo
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   Posted 8/13/2008 11:52 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

"Why do the Abenaki peoples of Maine call them selves the Abenaki? In thier old tongue, this means "people from the east" or "People of the dawn". Now, if you are standing on the coast of Maine looking east, then you aint seeing anything but a lot of water."

Um,maybe they call themselves "people from the east" because they live to the east of everyone else, or "peple of the dawn" because they are the first ones to see the dawn every day?

As for "why people wrote books when only monks could read"... you really need to read more history books (and I mean books about everyday secular life in history) and fewer conspiracy tomes.   In many cases, books were a way of recording oral tales (that's certainly the case for Beowulf and the Icelandic sagas, for example), and even in the days before printing, secular books existed and were in some cases surprisingly popular (even when they were works of fiction - Mandeville's Travels, for example)

 

 


Brian Dolton
 
Land Of Wind And Ghosts stories:
"The Box Of Beautiful Things" - IGMS#3
"The Man Who Was Never Afraid" - Abyss and Apex #20
"At Blue Crane Falls" - Abyss and Apex #25
"Where No Wind Blows" - Staffs & Starships #2
"The Gray World" - Every Day Fiction (June 1st 2008) 
"What The Sea Refuses" - Black Gate (forthcoming)
"What The Heart Bears" - Black Gate (forthcoming)
"Above The Clouds" - Paper Blossoms, Sharpened Steel (forthcoming)
"Three Out Of Four" - Sorcerous Signals Feb-Apr 08 
"The Dragon Path" - Fictitious Force #5
"The Last Arrow Of Liang Xi" - Darwin's Evolutions (forthcoming)
 
Stories in other settings:
"The Unicorn Hunter" - OG's Speculative Fiction #8
"Call Centre" - Necrotic Tissue #1
"When Winter Came" - ASIM #32
"Cold Fire" - Flashing Swords #9, The Age Of Blood And Snow (forthcoming) 
"If We Were Briar Roses" - Every Day Fiction (July 9th 2008)
"St. Saviour And The Devil's Dandy" - Flashing Swords (forthcoming)
"In This City" - Fantasy Magazine (forthcoming)

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Richard Stanbery
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   Posted 8/12/2008 11:42 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
 Quite right! So as to the original question about what genre this topic should be in, I suppose that would depend upon how the author presents the story. It could easily be done as fantasy, or it could be tweaked a little to read as more of a historical fiction, such as is the case with my current work in progress. It is a fun era to explore though, as so much was happening then that modern audiences might not know in the common mainstream of our collective knowledge.
     Just like the dark ages themselves, it is the specialist that bring things to light. We may be the modern day embodiments of the bards of old. Hum, I wish I could remember how the color rules went. How many colors was a bard allowed to wear in his garments...By the old Brehon laws, colors were a very ritualized presentation, and only one who was actually in a certain class was allowed to wear them. That being the case, then we can look into the symbolism of the characters in the Authurian cycles and determine a few things about them, such as the green knight, etc etc....Oh, here I go again! Me thinks another round of anachronismitis is setting in!roll
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RHFay
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   Posted 8/11/2008 12:22 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Interestingly enough, bronze swords were cast from stone moulds. Therefore, they may be a grain of truth to the sword in the stone legends.

Monks didn't necessarily limit themselves to religious subjects in their manuscripts. Histories, like Geoffrey of Monmouth's  "History of the Kings of Britain", were also popular (Geoffrey was a clergyman). We have many of the legends of the past thanks to clerical interest in the subject. And take a look at some of the illuminations that accompany the text in medieval manuscripts. Some clerical artists doodled all sorts of things that had nothing to do with religion.


"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!" 
 
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions 
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Richard Stanbery
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   Posted 8/11/2008 11:45 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
     I am writting a book on this subject as we speak, and I am not so sure that it is all fantasy. More like a super secret coded, totally twisted and convoluted story that has been re-written by oposition organizations to hide the grain of truth that the more ancient stories may be based on.
     For example, it seems that there is some evidence that there really was a house of Constantine, which was a kind of dynasty that the Romans set up to govern Briton for them, kind of like the Herodian dynasty in Isreal. It was from the house of Constantine that Uther Pendragon, and later Arthur came from. I do not see too much impossible about this part.
     We do know that there was a Saxon invasion, and that the Roman empire fell. As to the sword in the stone and the other wierd things in the story, these can be explained as literary devices, or just additions that were added into the story by bards, and later by Geofrey of Monmouth, possibly to discredit the earlier story.
     Now, if the story was invented just as a story that could be sold to a mass market, then what was the motive? There was no mass market in the middle ages fot sci-fi or fantasy books. Few could read, and there may have only been a few thousand books in all of Europe, most of them Bibles. About the only way to get a book written then was to go to a monastery and ask the monks to make you one (by hand).
     Now, if most of the literate people were monks or clerics, then why did they show an interest in the Arthurian cycles, Beowulf, or the Canterbury Tales? Why would monks in a manostic order spend so much time writing these storeis down to be preserved? Enter a clue to the code; The first enemy that Arthur fights in King Lot. His last battle in on the river Camel. Now, if we put the first last and the last first, then these clues become Camel-Lot.
     Hum? Why would the dark ages monks write these coded things into the story that they should have shown no interest in to start with? Also, the oldest paper document in English just happens to be a copy of Beowulf, and was almost certainly copied by two seprerate monks, one of which corrected the others work, and this document still exist.
     And then there is the fact that during the 1100s', many of the older orders were being done away with by you know who. This was roughly the time of Strongbow, and Henry II's invasion of Ireland with the support of you know who, to squash the older orders in Ireland. Around this time, and within the era of culture war that was going on as a result of all of this, comes the revisionist. And so then comes the Geofrey of Monmouth versions of the Arthurian cycles, and here is where most of the fantasy comes into the story, such as Merlin, etc etc. An attempt to make a halfway plausible older story turn into a fantasy story that is not believable. So, what was that all about?
     The Lady of the Lake could be another clue, as could Morgan and Mordrid. I do find it interesting that one of the older orders had a monk named St. brendan who came to the Americas in roughly the same time as the Arthurian cycles. Could this be Avalon?
     Why do the Abenaki peoples of Maine call them selves the Abenaki? In thier old tongue, this means "people from the east" or "People of the dawn". Now, if you are standing on the coast of Maine looking east, then you aint seeing anything but a lot of water.
     Also, there are ruins in New England that were probably made by these Irish monks of the older order, from the times before you know who took over the orders of the British Isles. Obviously they were here, and the Vikings came after them, leaving a trail of coded (Futhark)runestones, as if they were looking for something. So, where did this come from?
     There is a lot to say here, and I am sure now that the men in black are going to get me for revealing this stuff! skull 
     Anyways, there is a lot to think about here, and far too much for me to tell on this post. You will have to wait for me to finish the book (if I can) hee hee. But, I say this, there may or may not be a grain or truth in the Arthurian stories, and they may be linked to the other stories in a secret coded kind of way. Dig for yourselves if you dare, and we shall all have a good time doing it!;-)     
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crystalwizard
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   Posted 5/22/2008 1:32 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Bitter Irony said...
Has anyone seen any short stories drawn from Arthurian Legend recently?


There's one called Elements that will be appearing in the special summer issue of Flashing Swords which goes on sale June 1. You might consider buying a copy of the magazine.
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crystalwizard
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   Posted 5/22/2008 1:31 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Heroic Fantasy


Never meddle in the affairs of a wizard unless you are soggy and hard to light!



Managing Editor of Flashing Swords


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Steven the Git
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   Posted 5/21/2008 4:40 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I would still say fantasy too. I guess if it was about a Roman Briton called Artorius fighting Saxons and Picts then maybe, just maybe, you could argue for historical drama or something like that, but like Bill says, it is based on characters drawn from legends.

I do remember a movie, long ago, set on Arthur but with blokes on motorbikes. Not sure what that was defined as. Good fun?  ;-)


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spinetinglers.co.uk   Bakemono will not stop!

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Bill Ward
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   Posted 5/21/2008 2:16 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'd call it Fantasy (or, specifically Arthurian Fantasy) even if it doesn't have any magical elements because it is based on tales and myths, and takes a storyteller's liberties with history.


billwardwriter.com

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Bitter Irony
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   Posted 5/21/2008 1:15 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
What genre is it? Fantasy seems like the obvious answer, but what if it doesn't involve any of the magical characters (Merlin, Morgan le Fay, Lady of the Lake etc.)? Has anyone seen any short stories drawn from Arthurian Legend recently?  eyes I know they're out there, but I don't know where to start looking.
 
Thanks for the help, and if this is a stupid question...blame it on the antihistimines turn which are probably angry at me because I spelled their name wrong, anyway!)
 
~Bitter Irony


From even the greatest of horrors, Irony is seldom absent.
~H.P. Lovecraft, The Shunned House
 
And here I begin my foray into the dark and deadly waters of e-zine editing...
 
 

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