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anna
Neophyte

Date Joined Apr 2007
Total Posts : 169

Posted 5/16/2008 5:02 PM (GMT -5)

I have recently been advised by an editor that I should drop my first publishing credit because the book is being sold through Lulu and therefore most editors know that is a vanity press.

Being that it was my first of so far, ( fingers crossed ) seven acceptances I will admit I was green about the process. But of 6 other acceptances since then, no one else has said that it is somehow unprofessional to have been published in a book sold on-line in this fashion.

It is a TOC that I share with Michael Ehart, so hopefully he will read this and give me his input. I know that some people won't take anyone serious who is only self-published, but this particular credit was an open anthology call and I legitimately gained acceptance into the book.

Is there a way to word that credit without revealing it is being sold through a vanity press? IMHO it is a fine book and I am in no way ashamed of it, but perhaps there is a trick I'm not aware of to listing the credit.

So to those of you here who also edit as well as write, do you look unfavorably on such credits? Do free e-zines fall into this less than professional category?

I must say I am a bit confused. I thought I was following cover letter etiquette as I have found it described. Perhaps do you just list the book, but not the publisher? Of course, should anyone Google the title they would be directed to Lulu anyway so it can't be a complete secret.

I appreciate the help I am sure will be forthcoming from you all.

MichaelEhart
Sage

Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 2352

Posted 5/16/2008 5:19 PM (GMT -5)

I have had stuff all over the place, and for the most part I don't think it matters. I have had no problem with being taken seriously ---for the most part editors read your story and I suspect have no idea who you are anyway. If they know me, and buy my stuff anyway, then so much the better, but I have been in at least 2 anthologies published through LuLu that I remember and no one has said anything. In fact I carried Better Fiction with me to the Nebulas to show off the ToC which includes Honore De Balzac because it tickles me to be there with someone I was forced to read in college.

anna, is this Damned in Dixie? Because that is one great fine mother of an anthology and the only reason why I would care about it being published through LuLu is that not enough people have seen it. It is displayed proudly in my sig here. Honestly, if folks haven't read this one they are missing out in some pretty juicy stuff. I list it as Tenoka Press, BTW, because in this case LuLu is just handling the printing and distribution portion. It is not a vanity project--- Ron Shiflet did a first-rate job.

Click here to buy my book!

The Servant of the Manthycore from DEP

Illustrated by Rachel Marks, with an introduction by Michael Moorcock

Read me in 2008!

"Without Napier" Every Day Fiction, April 9

"Night of Shadows, Night of Knives" Magic and Mechanica, Ricasso Press, Spring 2008

"To Destroy All Flesh" Return of the Sword, Flashing Swords Press, Spring 2008

"Only His Name" Every Day Fiction, March 30

"An Exorcism Straight, Hold the Elvis" They Are Not What They Seem, Janrae Frank, ed., TBA

"The First Trial of Jermaish the King" Flashing Swords #10, May 2008

Still in print!

"The Stars by Law Forbidden" Unparalleled Journeys II, Journey Books, 2007

"Six Zombies Doing That Mick Jagger Strut" Damned in Dixie, Tenoka Press, 2007

http://mehart.blogspot.com/

AlexMoisi
Neophyte

Date Joined Feb 2008
Total Posts : 69

Posted 5/16/2008 5:25 PM (GMT -5)

As an editor for Northpoint I can say that the story is the only thing that will sell the story. I rarely read the whole bio until after I have gone through the story and I have rejected many "big names" who had contests and dozens of publications attached to their name. It's all about the story and how good it is.

for more of me & a few unprofesional market reviews check out
www.dracken.co.nr

The amazing adventure e-zine NorthPoint

anna
Neophyte

Date Joined Apr 2007
Total Posts : 169

Posted 5/16/2008 5:32 PM (GMT -5)

Yes, it is Damned in Dixie. I agree that it is a damned fine book, no pun intended. The bad part is, I think the editor actually meant to be helpful. I know a long list of people who subbed the project and everyone rejected got the same form letter.

I got personal comments and then the advice to drop anything for sale at Lulu from my publishing credits. As I said, it puzzled me a bit because my idea of vanity press is when you pay a publisher to print your own book.

Thanks for the tip. I honestly didn't notice the Tenoka Press info on the cover. I'll label it that way from now on and list it proudly on my credits!

RHFay
Sage

Date Joined Nov 2007
Total Posts : 2014

Posted 5/16/2008 6:53 PM (GMT -5)

This seems a bit odd, being told to drop one of your publication credits, but I guess I can see where the attitude is coming from. Anything seen as vanity press may carry the stigma that vanity press still bears.

As for me, I list everything on my web site "list of publications" that went through some sort of editorial process. I have had poetry published in "4 the luv" markets as well as paying markets. I also mention most if not all of these publications in my cover letter, if I include a bio or publication credits in the body of the letter.

It sounds like you've come up with a decent solution. Get rid of the appearance that it was published through a vanity press, get rid of the stigma.

"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"

Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions

http://azurelionproductions.com

cussedness
Adept

Date Joined Apr 2005
Total Posts : 857

Posted 5/16/2008 7:53 PM (GMT -5)

I have been told that lulu is the kiss of death. However, I am bringing out my own series under my Daverana Imprint through lulu. In a sense, they are reprints because I sold the electronic rights to Renebooks and am exercising my print rights, which I still own. We'll see what happens.

I believe that quality is quality no matter what the source of the printing.

Janrae Frank
I have no skeletons in my closet, they are all hanging from the yardarm.

Once there were three brothers, Brandrahoon the vampire, Isranon called the Dawnhand, speaker to spirits, and Waejonan the Accursed, first of sa’necari. Isranon defied his brothers and was destroyed, his descendants forced into the darkness.

The Shadowed Princes
www.fictionwise.com/eBooks/eBook64690.htm?cache
website
www.janraefrank.com
Darkzone
darkzone.yuku.com/

Bill Ward
Biblioholic

Date Joined Jul 2006
Total Posts : 1738

Posted 5/16/2008 8:09 PM (GMT -5)

More and more small presses are turning to POD, I think the association of POD with self publishing will go away, in time. As others have said, POD is just a method of printing, it does not imply anything else.

billwardwriter.com

crystalwizard
Forum Moderator

Date Joined Nov 2006
Total Posts : 5194

Posted 5/17/2008 5:42 PM (GMT -5)

I use Lulu to print Flashing Swords. We are hardly a vanity press and Lulu is NOT any such thing. And Lulu is also not the 'kiss of death'. We're doing pretty well, thank you.

Lulu's prices are good and their quality is excellent. I don't recall seeing anywhere that it's required you state who you published through on your credits. Or if you published it yourself. I guess, drop it if you feel the editor in question might be negatively affected and don't, otherwise.

cussedness
Adept

Date Joined Apr 2005
Total Posts : 857

Posted 5/17/2008 6:33 PM (GMT -5)

I agree with CW. I think the two authors, who called it the "kiss of death" in talking to me were incorrect in their assessment. A printer is a printer.

Hermit
Diavhrati Luminary

Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 1785

Posted 5/18/2008 9:01 AM (GMT -5)

Well, here are a couple of my thoughts on the subject:
If you're trying to sell a novel, then the self-publishing angle has the two perspectives of: "I was too lazy or impatient to find a 'real' publisher"; or "I believe in my writing enough to toss out a big bundle of cash to invest in my talent."
If you're trying to sell a short work, then it really shouldn't be relevant enough to irrelevant. A credit is a credit.
Does lulu publish anymore? I thought they had cut their services down to serving small publishers and micro-publishers.
Anyway . . . if it's an anthology, it can't really be a 'vanity publication' unless the editor of the antho is a hack. In which case that is on the editor, not the writer.
As an editor, I only pay attention to credits once I've determinied a story to be right on the border, if then. Most of the time I simply ignore them and determine publication on the story itself under its own merits.

Read me in The Return of the Sword!
Blog: http://bitterhermit.wordpress.com
Buy wine: http://fringemonkey.org
Poetry Blog: http://fringemonkey.wordpress.com

"The schizophrenic is drowning in the same waters in which the mystic swims with delight." --Joseph Campbell

crystalwizard
Forum Moderator

Date Joined Nov 2006
Total Posts : 5194

Posted 5/18/2008 9:18 AM (GMT -5)

MysticWino said...

Does lulu publish anymore? I thought they had cut their services down to serving small publishers and micro-publishers.

Lulu provides these services:

Printing
Drop shipping
Editor's Analysis
Book Formatting
Custom Cover Design
Listing on Lulu Marketplace
Template Storefront
PDF Creation
Public or Private listing
Upload book to Lulu
One free copy of your book

Most of those are free. It costs you nothing to open an account on Lulu, to start a project, upload a .doc file and have them create a .pdf from it, sell it from their store or list it on their marketplace. Not sure how you get the 'one free copy of your book' cause I never have.

The custom cover design, book formatting and editor's analysis isn't free and I have no idea how good they are.

Lulu also 'sells' ISBN numbers, which they legally can't do. The only entity in the USA that can sell ISBN numbers is Bowker. What Lulu does there is reassign one of their numbers to you, and charge you 3x what they pay Bowker for it. However since Bowker is the entity that controls what publisher is listed in the Books in Print catalog, Lulu remains listed with that ISBN, not you.

The biggest advantages to Lulu over other places is that:
a: you can publish a book without it costing you a dime
b: you don't have to have an ISBN number (useful for things like magazines which don't need one)
c: you can use their online .pdf creator if you don't own a copy of adobe
d: your customers can buy from lulu and you don't have to collect sale's tax or pay for shipping. Lulu collects both and pays the sale's tax.

MysticWino said...

Does lulu publish anymore?

Since every book that comes out of them which bears one of their ISBN numbers has them listed as the Publisher, yes. Even if they don't do any of the work.

cussedness
Adept

Date Joined Apr 2005
Total Posts : 857

Posted 5/18/2008 9:45 AM (GMT -5)

However, i think I can use my isbns with lulu that i purchased directly from Bowker. I just have to figure out how to assign them.

Also the books I am bringing out from lulu will not have electronic versions through them as I am only bringing out the print editions of books that are already out in ebook from my publisher. i think I need to go dig up that old self-publishing thread and get it going again.

crystalwizard
Forum Moderator

Date Joined Nov 2006
Total Posts : 5194

Posted 5/18/2008 9:54 AM (GMT -5)

cussedness said...
However, i think I can use my isbns with lulu that i purchased directly from Bowker. I just have to figure out how to assign them.

Yep, you can. Just put them in the front matter of your book. I believe that once you've finished with the entire creation of the book, when you go into edit it there's a place to put in the ISBN. I don't remember off hand if you can do that before you click finish and are told it's available or not.

cussedness said...

Also the books I am bringing out from lulu will not have electronic versions through them as I am only bringing out the print editions of books that are already out in ebook from my publisher. i think I need to go dig up that old self-publishing thread and get it going again.

They don't have to be. Just don't check the box that says people can download the book.

southernweirdo
Neophyte

Date Joined Apr 2008
Total Posts : 141

Posted 5/18/2008 1:34 PM (GMT -5)

When going through my slush, I have learned to not pay attention to prior credits. They have no bearing on that particular story unless it is a reprint (if a reprint, I like to have a prior publication history in case I need to contact an editor/publisher to verify rights are available). Some of the best written stories I have read have come from people with minimal to no prior credits while some of the worst have come from SFWA or HWA members with several professional credits to their name. Sometimes a prior history can hurt an author with me. Sometimes I see someone who has been published in Weird Tales, F&SF, Asimov's, etc., and I set my hopes high for the story, expecting something above the bar set from those prior publications. And maybe the reverse is true for the unpublished, I wasn't expecting much but was blown away by the quality of their story.

For this reason, the last time I changed my guidelines I asked for no cover letter or author bio -- just the author's contact information and the story. It helps me stay objective and focus more on the story/poem/article than the author.

Southern Fried Weirdness

My Blog: http://southernweirdo.livejournal.com/

crystalwizard
Forum Moderator

Date Joined Nov 2006
Total Posts : 5194

Posted 5/18/2008 1:42 PM (GMT -5)

I also pay no attention to the credits someone lists. I usually don't tell my reading team who wrote the story, either. The only time I do pay attention to the credits is when I have to scroll through three screen pages of them to get to the story. About that point I start wondering if they actually included a story and why they thought I wanted their resume.

Credits also don't buy a free lunch with submissions to Flashing Swords. Every submission goes through the slush readers, and all acceptances go through line edits, I don't care who it's from.

Never meddle in the affairs of a wizard unless you are soggy and hard to light!

Managing Editor of Flashing Swords

Visit my art gallery on art wanted
All my books in print

cussedness
Adept

Date Joined Apr 2005
Total Posts : 857

Posted 5/18/2008 1:46 PM (GMT -5)

that's the best way to handle it. the work must speak for itself.

Gustavo
Sage

Date Joined Aug 2007
Total Posts : 1399

Posted 5/19/2008 9:43 AM (GMT -5)

Got to agree. Most small press work is going through Lulu nowadays. This says nothing about the quality of the work therein.

Visit my livejournal! http://bondo-ba.livejournal.com/

Gabriel Landowski
Stablehand

Date Joined May 2008
Total Posts : 6

Posted 5/19/2008 12:36 PM (GMT -5)

I agree - leave it in. You published it so then list it.

In Lulu when you open a project detail up you can drop the ISBN in.

Cheers

RHFay
Sage

Date Joined Nov 2007
Total Posts : 2014

Posted 5/19/2008 12:40 PM (GMT -5)

Of course, I think the incident that started this thread shows that the reality of it and people's perception of it may be two different things. Being printed through Lulu may have no real bearing on quality, but in some people's minds it might be seen as if it does.

It may take a while yet for that perception to change.

"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"

Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions

http://azurelionproductions.com

crystalwizard
Forum Moderator

Date Joined Nov 2006
Total Posts : 5194

Posted 5/19/2008 1:11 PM (GMT -5)

RHFay said...

It may take a while yet for that perception to change.

It'll change faster if people with quality work don't hide the fact that they used Lulu to print with.

DAWaverly
Quirky Weirdness

Date Joined Jul 2006
Total Posts : 309

Posted 5/19/2008 7:55 PM (GMT -5)

crystalwizard said...

It'll change faster if people with quality work don't hide the fact that they used Lulu to print with.

Quite true. And while CW has never hidden the fact that Lulu was used, the print versions of Flashing Swords #8 and #9 make no mention of Lulu that I could find. Not a big deal IMO. However the important part for anyone listing credentials is to list the magazine name, Flashing Swords, or publisher Cyberwizard Productions--not the printing house, Lulu. To me saying you have been published on Lulu is like saying you have been published by Printex or Kinkos. The rub is that any person can use Lulu to self-publish rubbish. The negative connotations branch from there.

- Deven
Blogtide Rising

published
"The Journey" at Every Day Fiction

forthcoming
"An Awakening of Shadows" in The Infinity Swords anthology from Carnivah House
"All That Glitters" at Every Day Fiction arriving 30 May 2008.

crystalwizard
Forum Moderator

Date Joined Nov 2006
Total Posts : 5194

Posted 5/19/2008 8:30 PM (GMT -5)

DAWaverly said...
And while CW has never hidden the fact that Lulu was used, the print versions of Flashing Swords #8 and #9 make no mention of Lulu that I could find.

I think that if you wander through a bookstore, and pull random books off the shelves, you'll find that almost none (if any) of them list the printer that was used. I think you'll find the same thing if you wander through the magazine racks and look at random magazines.

RHFay
Sage

Date Joined Nov 2007
Total Posts : 2014

Posted 5/19/2008 8:34 PM (GMT -5)

crystalwizard said...

RHFay said...

It may take a while yet for that perception to change.

It'll change faster if people with quality work don't hide the fact that they used Lulu to print with.

As long as is doesn't hurt the people in the process.

"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"

Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions

http://azurelionproductions.com

DAWaverly
Quirky Weirdness

Date Joined Jul 2006
Total Posts : 309

Posted 5/20/2008 8:55 AM (GMT -5)

crystalwizard said...

DAWaverly said...
And while CW has never hidden the fact that Lulu was used, the print versions of Flashing Swords #8 and #9 make no mention of Lulu that I could find.

Which is why my very next sentence was "Not a big deal IMO."

RHFay
Sage

Date Joined Nov 2007
Total Posts : 2014

Posted 5/20/2008 2:16 PM (GMT -5)

In my eyes, anything that goes through an editorial process, is read and considered by a publication's own editor or editorial team, is not really self-published or vanity published. I don't list my poems posted on my web site, blogs, or various forums in my official "list of publications", but I do list poems and articles published in "amateur 4 the luv" publications, as long as they went through an editor prior to publication.

I'll let others decide the relative worth of each publication.

Perhaps that's the wrong attitude to take, but that's how I approach the issue.