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Jordan Lapp
Ebony & Ivory



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   Posted 4/30/2008 8:25 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
What's awesome is that I'm coming across as a COMPLETE pig in this thread, and I'm so totally not.


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Hermit
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   Posted 4/30/2008 8:51 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Only when you don't bring it home with a need for antibiotics . . .


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T A Markitan
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   Posted 4/30/2008 8:59 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jordan Lapp said...
Really? You haven't heard of "What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas"?


And like a trip to Vegas, that stay is temporary.
Ten years down the road, when the lies he spun about his "business trip" have faded from his memory, the wife will randomly ask a question about it, and he will give the wrong answer. Then she will nail his hide to the wall. :p


I do horrible things to punctuation.

"careful what you wish
you may regret it
careful what you wish
you just might get it"
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Hermit
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   Posted 4/30/2008 10:34 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Therein lies part of the problem. No matter what he does, he will never lie outright to his wife . . .


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crystalwizard
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   Posted 4/30/2008 10:54 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
is he ever going BACK to said wife?


Never meddle in the affairs of a wizard unless you are soggy and hard to light!



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Hermit
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   Posted 5/1/2008 8:14 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

He believes so, but has no real reason to believe he can.

At this point in time, he has no idea that his wife is also a key character in this setting world. He thinks he knows a way back, but if he's wrong he'll die in the attempt. And despite his assertions otherwise, he really loves life.

In the BIG picture, he's been married to his wife for . . . ever. He only recalls his life on Earth and his subsequent relocation. On earth, his wife is his "third time's a charm" wife. They've been married for ten years. Having been a player through his 20s and 30s, he constantly fights the compulsion to wander; it is only the immensity of his love for wife #3 [and the immensity of his guilt for having been a s9it to his first wife and somewhat less a jerk to his 2nd] that keeps him honest. He holds an intellectual appreciation for monogamy, but really doesn't feel it. Truth and honesty are core values, and he feels it would be dishonest and disrespect his wife by being with another woman. If it did happen, he would not be able to lie to her about it - and yet he's learned better than to appease his own guilt by heaping grief and doubt on her and so would not voluntarily confess. Unless, perhaps, he were suddenly forced by circumstance to adopt a daughter obviously of his bloodline. Though he'd likely suggest that his brother's genes would create such a likeness before his own would (distraction, aka lying by diversion).

crystalwizard said...
is he ever going BACK to said wife?


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Hermit
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   Posted 5/1/2008 5:52 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Once I have this thing drafted, I'd really appreciate opinions on it.

If you'd be willing to offer more or less of a critique, please PM me and I'll send the draft to an email you designate. :-)


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crystalwizard
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   Posted 5/1/2008 5:56 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
MysticWino said...
his wife is his "third time's a charm" wife.

>snip

it is only the immensity of his love for wife #3 [and the immensity of his guilt for having been a s9it to his first wife and somewhat less a jerk to his 2nd] that keeps him honest.


Then why is he even considering another woman? if he has that much love for wife #3, the very idea of another woman should be repulsive regardless of how seductive she might try to be. Not to mention the fact that she's NOT HUMAN, she's an alien. Might look human but the way you've described his mindset she shouldn't even be a consideration for him.

Kinda like "just how tempting would it be if a wild animal on some exotic island tried to put the moves on you if you were shipwrecked there?"
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Hermit
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   Posted 5/1/2008 6:09 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

How'd I give the impression she's alien? She's definitely human. Right now, anyway. And he really doesn't have a moral aversion to any act of pleasure - unless it inflicts harm on another. He's been away from his wife for far more than forty years! And, you're right, his mindset defaults to 'forget about it'; however, the guy is definitely very human and definitely attracted to the girl for numerous reasons. Among those reasons: she is key to his longterm schemes; she has a hot body; she is the most skilled ranger he's ever met, which is saying quite a lot; she's one of the most skilled martial artists he's ever met, and again that is saying a great deal; and he's been alone for fifteen years living in a cave and studying flora, fauna, and geology!

But it was the drugs that got to him . . . Not a thing either of them could have done to stop it. Simple mistake. rolleyes

crystalwizard said...
MysticWino said...
his wife is his "third time's a charm" wife.

>snip

it is only the immensity of his love for wife #3 [and the immensity of his guilt for having been a s9it to his first wife and somewhat less a jerk to his 2nd] that keeps him honest.


Then why is he even considering another woman? if he has that much love for wife #3, the very idea of another woman should be repulsive regardless of how seductive she might try to be. Not to mention the fact that she's NOT HUMAN, she's an alien. Might look human but the way you've described his mindset she shouldn't even be a consideration for him.

Kinda like "just how tempting would it be if a wild animal on some exotic island tried to put the moves on you if you were shipwrecked there?"


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crystalwizard
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   Posted 5/1/2008 6:24 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
MysticWino said...
How'd I give the impression she's alien? She's definitely human.


I thought you said she wasn't from Earth? I thought your story was set somewhere else than Earth?
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Hermit
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   Posted 5/1/2008 6:48 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
It is set in Kumari Vale. Which is not in this galaxy. That fact doesn't make the humans any more alien than an American is to a Chinese or Japanese or German, etc. And Skinner certainly has no qualms about interracial relations. The only basic anatomical differences for Valliants is that they have a few other glands, slightly larger brains, and a penchant for being lefties. They also tend to avoid the development of a corpus collosum, thus they are more whole-brained - which consequently leads to a high incidence of ambidexterity despite left-hand primacy.


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crystalwizard
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   Posted 5/1/2008 6:56 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
MysticWino said...
It is set in Kumari Vale. Which is not in this galaxy. That fact doesn't make the humans any more alien than an American is to a Chinese or Japanese or German, etc.


depends on the mindset of the character though, whether he would consider someone not birthed on earth to be viable or not.

MysticWino said...

And Skinner certainly has no qualms about interracial relations. The only basic anatomical differences for Valliants is that they have a few other glands, slightly larger brains, and a penchant for being lefties. They also tend to avoid the development of a corpus collosum, thus they are more whole-brained - which consequently leads to a high incidence of ambidexterity despite left-hand primacy.


Which would really only matter to Skinner if he were a biologist or doing an autopsy at the time ;)

However whether he would see her as someone to have any moral qualms over has everything to do with whether he sees her as being as 'human' as he sees those people from his home world being.
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Camille Alexa
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   Posted 5/1/2008 7:36 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
MichaelEhart said...
I'm 52, and I'm still a hottie. . . .
I can vouch for the truth of this.  Also for the stunning wife bit. 


 
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MichaelEhart
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   Posted 5/1/2008 9:45 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
*blush*


Click here to buy my book!
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"Without Napier" Every Day Fiction, April 9
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Hermit
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   Posted 5/2/2008 7:02 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
crystalwizard said...
MysticWino said...
It is set in Kumari Vale. Which is not in this galaxy. That fact doesn't make the humans any more alien than an American is to a Chinese or Japanese or German, etc.


depends on the mindset of the character though, whether he would consider someone not birthed on earth to be viable or not. He's pretty open-minded and very conscious of species elitism.

MysticWino said...

And Skinner certainly has no qualms about interracial relations. The only basic anatomical differences for Valliants is that they have a few other glands, slightly larger brains, and a penchant for being lefties. They also tend to avoid the development of a corpus collosum, thus they are more whole-brained - which consequently leads to a high incidence of ambidexterity despite left-hand primacy.


Which would really only matter to Skinner if he were a biologist or doing an autopsy at the time ;) Been there, done that. He's a Luminary and a prof in thier world. He's done numerous autopsies on animal and humanoids alike. How do you think he's refrained from sex for so long? He sublimates and occupies his mind with the study of everything. He's especially intrigued with the parapineal gland, not so much the metathyroid. And, just for the record, the sexual anatomy of Valliants is identical to that of humans; however, the gestation period and menses are longer. Skinner suggests that this is related to the lunar cycles and gravitational nuances.

However whether he would see her as someone to have any moral qualms over has everything to do with whether he sees her as being as 'human' as he sees those people from his home world being. The guy is really amoral. He is very compassionate at times, but is also overly objective and scientific when his curiosity is piqued. He values intellect and reason, and also places a high value on compassion. Though he has flashes of romantic tendancies, he's overall quite the pragmatist. He likely sees valliant roundears as more human than himself - but it's irrelevant in terms of the pleasure principle. Especially when shepherdsbane comes into play [shepherdsbane is a turnip-like plant grown at 2000-3000 Pale in the Western Skyteeth and has the exagarated properties of the maca; grown at 1200-2000 Pale is the more radish-like lambspaw, which is used for its benefits to circulation, digestion, and accelarated healing. Not good to mistake the former for the latter . . .]


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Charles Gramlich
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   Posted 5/2/2008 11:56 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Although I would say he is cheating, I think the readers are likely to forgive him if you show him as tormented by his "failing."  It seems you're concerned about whether the readers will be turned off by the character cheating, but if you handle it deftly I don't think they will.
 
 


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Hermit
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   Posted 5/2/2008 2:56 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

I'd say that he's screwed either way. In his mindset, he's being disloyal to his wife - if she's still around and waiting on him - if he does permit himself to engage in any kind of romance or relationship. On the other hand, he's a man with needs like any other. How long should he wait before he gives up on getting back home? How much pleasure must he forfeit in the name of fidelity?

He would expect her to go on living without him. To continue as though she were enjoying life enough for both of them. He would want that for her. And . . . it's been a really long time . . . But, that kind of has its downside in that he's a bit self-conscious of it.

Also, he'd be cheating any mistress by giving her 'left-overs'. Because no matter how he feels about the woman, his heart is too full of his wife to be given to any other. She can never be more than 'the other woman' to him. Even if she bears him a child. Which she will because she must, or the future is going to go very badly for the Vale . . .

So. Does he cheat on his wife to save the world in which he presently lives? Or remain faithful at the cost of countless innocent lives?

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crystalwizard
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   Posted 5/2/2008 3:58 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
MysticWino said...

So. Does he cheat on his wife to save the world in which he presently lives? Or remain faithful at the cost of countless innocent lives?


I think you have a more intense storyline with that option, one that would allow you to explore his character, the situation and all sorts of other questions. Something that the reader these days doesn't normally get faced with having to deal with and explore.


The other solution is a 'been there, done that, repeated all the time in various ways' sort of plotline.
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BethS
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   Posted 5/2/2008 5:15 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

If he has a wife and he's supposed to remain faithful, then yes, he's cheating if he sleeps with someone else.

But he really doesn't have a marriage, in the true sense. Why did he leave his wife to take a vow of chastity? What married man does that? Sounds like he's abandoned his wife.

I haven't read the whole thread yet, so I don't know if any of that has been answered.

~Beth

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BethS
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   Posted 5/2/2008 5:19 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
MysticWino said...
You've evidently read another of my stories with this ambiguity . . .
He's easy to drug. Makes his own wine and is fond of a certain intoxicating mushroom - though he also chews a mixture that keeps his head clear most of the time. The mushrooms are great pain killers, and he suffers from chronic pain. This reason has yet to be outed, though, as it is his most protected secret. At least protected most from others . . . He's not even aware at this point of the greatest secrets of his life, which he has hidden from himself for . . . a very long time.
I think I'll go with this,

IMO, that's seems like a cop-out. And repugnant. It would make me really dislike the ranger woman.
 
~Beth
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SilviaMG
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   Posted 5/2/2008 8:29 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
"IMO, that's seems like a cop-out. And repugnant. It would make me really dislike the ranger woman."

... If somebody drugged me and had their way with me I'd be pretty ticked off. If you go this way you should probably explore what the man feels after been tricked in such a way.

"Does he cheat on his wife to save the world in which he presently lives? Or remain faithful at the cost of countless innocent lives?"

Well, if he really loves his wife as much as you say the answer is obvious. But a character can still be sympathetic even he or she makes bad choices or has a failing. It depends how you play it. It could be a Merlin and Nimue dynamic.
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Hermit
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   Posted 5/7/2008 12:57 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Well, if you're interested in seeing how I handled it, just let me know. PM me with your email address and I'll be happy to get feedback from discerning readers. ;-)

More story being written presently, but I'll send what I've got so far for feedback. It's a bit over ten-thousand words at the moment. Likely to end up around 25K.


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Nicholas
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   Posted 5/7/2008 2:12 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
David, I really hope you opted for the "getting drunk while playing around with alchemy" option. That brings in a *little* less culpability on his part while keeping the Ranger character from seeming like an evil "date raper." It also has the analogue in our world to how so many of these "unintended liaisons" happen: two people who were not intending to be unfaithful get a little tipsy on wine or martinis, and next thing you know, they're waking up in bed next to each other thinking, "OMG what did I do??!" This scenario also still affords the opportunity for loads of post-act guilt. "I should have known better." "I was unfaithful to my wife." "Sure, I can blame it on the magics, but is that just an excuse for my own subconscious desires?" Because, after all, getting drunk with a person whom you're physically attracted to is really not a good excuse--hence the reason no wife (or husband) to my knowledge has ever let it pass with a "Get out of jail free" card. "I understand, honey. You wouldn't have done it if you hadn't been drinking." uh-uh. My wife would still have my head on a pike in the front drive... freaked


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Hermit
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   Posted 5/7/2008 3:04 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Nicholas, it wouldn't be my head on a pike . . . freaked

Seriously, though, I understand that. I used to use that excuse, but I learned that it was a copout and just got honest about it.

I don't want to spoil it, so I won't tell you how it happened. I think it makes both characters more human as well as more sympathetic the way I worked it. No date rape [if you have to prove intent, anyway], and no crutching on the wine and shrooms - not exactly, anyway.

I seriously would have had no qualms in regards to the date rape scenario except for audience feedback. In the context of their culture, I don't think it would have been out of the question. HOWEVER, it really did go against the ranger's character. She wanted him on her own merits, not by deception or worse. She wanted him as much as a conquest as a companion - which came with its own psycho-social baggage for her. She is, after all, a soldier. And, truth to tell, she got way more than she bargained for . . .


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