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| SFReader Forums > SFReader > Ask The Expert > Breaking new ground in S&S | Forum Quick Jump
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John M. Whalen
flashg
      
Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 375
| Posted 4/2/2008 5:49 PM (GMT -4) |   | There is nothing new under the sun. Yet every sunrise is new.
Don't ask me what it means! | | Back to Top | | |
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MichaelEhart
Sage
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 2314
| Posted 4/2/2008 5:43 PM (GMT -4) | | It is an axiom among stage magicians that a "New Trick" is any one that your audience hasn't seen before. New tricks can be something as simple as an unusual protagonist, POV or setting, or a different tone to a common type of tale, or deeper or less realism to the world than the genre norm (Does your world have flies, cow poop and flatulence? Ask me how!) or any number of things that can give it a new look.
It is also said among magicians that every non-mechanical principle of magic is demonstrated in a good cups and balls routine---misdirection, momentary concealment, one-ahead, false count, forced perspective, et al. There are paintings on the inside of 4000 year old Egyptian tombs of court magicians doing essentially the same cups and balls routines that are practiced today.
So the point? If a good magician can delight an audience with the same tricks, and perhaps even the same patter as the Amazing Imohotshak used at Ramses the Great's 8th birthday party, so can a good writer take whatever tropes and boundaries a genre has laying around, and delight the reader.
With my Servant sories I have taken the Torah, the Epic of Gilgamesh, The Tale of the Deluge, mixed them with Zane Grey, Roger Zelazny and Raymond Chandler and poured the results into a S&S blender. I'm not able to claim originality in plot-lines, but I can say there is no one writing the same stuff I am, for better or worse, and that I have a unique voice---whether or not this is a good thing is for the readers to decide.
Click here to buy my book!
The Servant of the Manthycore from DEP
Illustrated by Rachel Marks, with an introduction by Michael Moorcock
Read me in 2008!
"Without Napier" Every Day Fiction, TBA
"Night of Shadows, Night of Knives" Magic and Mechanica, Ricasso Press, Spring 2008
"To Destroy All Flesh" Return of the Sword, Flashing Swords Press, Spring 2008
"Only His Name" Every Day Fiction, March 30
"An Exorcism Straight, Hold the Elvis" They Are Not What They Seem, Janrae Frank, ed., TBA
"The First Trial of Jermaish the King" Flashing Swords #10, May 2008
Still in print!
"The Stars by Law Forbidden" Unparalleled Journeys II, Journey Books, 2007
"Six Zombies Doing That Mick Jagger Strut" Damned in Dixie, Tenoka Press, 2007
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RHFay
Sage
Date Joined Nov 2007
Total Posts : 1550
| Posted 4/2/2008 5:04 PM (GMT -4) | | Maybe I'm just not seeing it as "black & white", and I can see both sides of the issue. I don't think I necessarily said that a new twist is a bad idea, just that the whole concept gets a bit old after a while, like the dislike of things with elves and dragons (I happen to like stories with elves and dragons). I don't think the presence of an "old trope" is necessarily a bad thing either. As some people have already pointed out, stray too far from the "standard genre tropes", and the piece becomes something else.
However, I will also admit that a fresh angle of an old trope might work better than a simple rehash of old tropes. But, as was pointed out with Mike's werewolf story (which I did like, by the way), you can always find someone that thinks a new twist isn't really that new. I know I've read or seen similar stories, but that doesn't mean Mike's story is bad.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that new twists aren't always as new as they seem. And a return to the "old tropes" may, in some instances, be a "new twist". But is it really new?
Am I making any sense? I'm not sure. Perhaps it's hard to explain my viewpoint because I'm really not trying to simply take one side or another. I don't think it's that cut-and-dry.
Perhaps it's not so much something "new" as something "different". Maybe that makes more sense.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
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Jordan Lapp
ppaL nadroJ
Date Joined Sep 2006
Total Posts : 2530
| Posted 4/2/2008 4:46 PM (GMT -4) | |
RHFay said...
However, I don't think the presence of elves (or dragons, or goblins) necessarily makes something an "old genre trope". I think elves can be done in a different way than they were done in Tolkien.
However, how much this difference really makes it a "new twist on an old trope", or falls short from that objective, may be in the eye of the beholder.
It feels like you're arguing two sides of the same argument. Could you please clarify? Earlier you were saying that "new twists on an old trope" was a bad idea, but here you're suggesting that elves could be done with a "new twist".
I think I'm missing something fundamental in your argument.
Jordan Lapp Managing Editor
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RHFay
Sage
Date Joined Nov 2007
Total Posts : 1550
| Posted 4/2/2008 4:31 PM (GMT -4) | |
Jordan Lapp said...I see your point, Richard, and agree with it, though I think it only applies in extreme cases like vampires. Elves, for instance, are being overdone to death, and they've been overdone in the exact same way since Tolkien.
I definitely agree that the "Tolkien clones" get a bit boring after a while. I read one Dennis McKiernan work that had a scene that was a complete rip-off of the Moria gate scene in The Fellowship of the Ring. That certainly does annoy me, especially since I think Tolkien did it better anyway.
However, I don't think the presence of elves (or dragons, or goblins) necessarily makes something an "old genre trope". I think elves can be done in a different way than they were done in Tolkien.
However, how much this difference really makes it a "new twist on an old trope", or falls short from that objective, may be in the eye of the beholder.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
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RHFay
Sage
Date Joined Nov 2007
Total Posts : 1550
| Posted 4/2/2008 4:23 PM (GMT -4) | |
Jordan Lapp said...And hell, when was the last time you saw a vampire movie where the (usually female) vampire actually drank blood????
The Insatiable, a recent SciFi original. As with most SciFi originals, it was a rather stupid movie, but the female vampire most definitely drank blood. She drank blood from a homeless man, from a rabbit, from a meter reader, and from her captor/boyfriend's workplace rival. The whole idea that she needed to drink blood every night was rather central to the plot. It might have been only in brief shots, but they did actually show her drinking the blood from her victims.
As bad a movie as it was, they did do a good job of combining the monstrous with the sexy. She was sexy, but she was also a monster.
(Yeah, I really lead a very unexciting life. My family enjoys "dumb movie night" on the SciFi channel.)
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
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RHFay
Sage
Date Joined Nov 2007
Total Posts : 1550
| Posted 4/2/2008 4:16 PM (GMT -4) | |
Super sexy vamps didn't start (well get big) until Anne Rice came along several years later.  I guess I do tend to mix up media a lot in my discussions. Sexy vampires were certainly around in movies well before Anne Rice came along. Think Frank Langella as Dracula. Even Lugosi was supposed to be sexy in his day.
I do agree - female vampires seem to have had that "sexy" factor almost from the start.
My point was that the much older vampire "trope" is for monstrous vampires. Publishing a work with monstrous, disgusting vampires may be seen as a new twist in today's market, but it's not really a new idea.
To be fair, I'm not saying a "new twist" is a bad thing, I'm just saying that "old tropes" might not be a bad thing under the right circumstances.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!"
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions
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James Enge
Maker
Date Joined Jan 2006
Total Posts : 207
| Posted 4/2/2008 3:33 PM (GMT -4) | | | | |
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erazmus
Master
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4474
| Posted 4/2/2008 3:22 PM (GMT -4) | | | | |
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Swashbuckler
One-man sword-and-sorcery machine
Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 1227
| Posted 4/2/2008 3:19 PM (GMT -4) | | Originality is a good thing, but as James rightly points out it isn't the whole ballgame.
I seem to run across a good deal of speculative fiction out there that is certainly original, but seems to toss out all the ideas of characterization, plot, etc., in the process. Indeed, on occasion I've seen stuff that was so doggone original it was pretty much impossible to read -- or so unsatisying from a storytelling standpoint that even if I admired many of the sentences, I couldn't find myself thinking highly of the whole.
I'm definitely on board with trying to punch up the originality factor in my own stuff. I've been writing more non-sword and sorcery of late partly out of a desire to do that, but I feel that urge when writing a good old-fashioned S&S tale, too. But I don't see myself ever veering in the direction of some of the stuff touted as "groundbreaking" and "original" and "metatextual deconstructionist post-Next-New-Weird-Until-We-Decide-What-The Future-Weird-Ought-To-Be" stuff I've seen. If that's what it takes to sell in some markets, I'll probably just stubbornly keep living and writing what I like until the pendulum swings back my way again.
Steve Goble
Visit my blog, Swords Against Boredom, for news on published fiction and upcoming stories. | | Back to Top | | |
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nathan
Sage
Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 2111
| Posted 4/2/2008 3:15 PM (GMT -4) | |
Jordan Lapp said...
And hell, when was the last time you saw a vampire movie where the (usually female) vampire actually drank blood???? I kept waiting for that in Ultraviolet, but it never happened.
You are much more likely to see her rub against another girl like a cat or perhaps kiss her.
As an aside the first story I ever sold for (then) pro-rates was a vampire story to Bloodlust-UK. I read "brave" story after social courageous story about bisexual manorexia stricken Kurt Cobains turned to lords of the night and I was immediatly moved to write a story about THIS guy.
I got a curt acceptence. Then I got a curt request to mention my motivation, I did so, outlinning what I said above. Then I got nothing. I've had friendlier rejections by far than I did that acceptance. Check cashed fine though.
VIEW IMAGE
"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages." | | Back to Top | | |
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erazmus
Master
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4474
| Posted 4/2/2008 3:13 PM (GMT -4) | | | | |
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nathan
Sage
Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 2111
| Posted 4/2/2008 3:05 PM (GMT -4) | |
James Enge said...
I really can't agree about Anne Rice inventing the sexy vampire. Look at the way Lucy Westenra is described in the original Dracula novel, for instance, or what vamp means in the early 20th C. What Rice did was update the sexiness (since the standards on these things change frequently) and take a pro-vampire stance.
No, this is true.
I did say disregard *some* of what was in Dracula in my post. Female vampires were almost always sexy right from the get go, I admit freely--and dracula was often seen as a Byronic character. But the movies and books I remember from the 70's had more of that fast zombie vibe and King was working within that--but in his own voice.
Then Rice hit like Fat Boy on Hiroshima and all you could find were stories about uber-cool, uber-sexy gender ambiguous Clavin Klein models with fangs.
And during this time, just below the radar but making a living Brian Lumlly was writting against type--though a little closer to what SK had in Lot.
VIEW IMAGE"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages." | | Back to Top | | |
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James Enge
Maker
Date Joined Jan 2006
Total Posts : 207
| Posted 4/2/2008 2:59 PM (GMT -4) | | I really can't agree about Anne Rice inventing the sexy vampire. Look at the way Lucy Westenra is described in the original Dracula novel, for instance, or what vamp means in the early 20th C. What Rice did was update the sexiness (since the standards on these things change frequently) and take a pro-vampire stance.
Novelty itself doesn't impress me as a reader, but impact does, and something which is overfamiliar can lose its impact. That's what Jordan seems to be getting at (correct me if I'm wrong), and I'm inclined to agree. On the other hand, I think genre, and the tropes of genre, can have impact as well. For maximum impact there should be a tension between the novel and the familiar, the new and the known.
There's also the fact that an author who uses a barbarian, for instance, is inviting comparison to REH, and that's a pretty high hurdle to clear. Someone is supposed to have teased Vergil about stealing from Homer and he said, "Try it yourself sometime. It's easier to steal Hercules' club than one of Homer's lines." If you can get away with it, it's obviously something to brag about, but it's not the only thing worth doing.
James Enge
http://jamesenge.com/
"A Covenant with Death" in Flashing Swords
"The Lawless Hours" in Black Gate 11
"The Gordian Stone" in Every Day Fiction
"The Red Worm's Way" forthcoming in Return of the Sword
"Payment in Full" forthcoming in Black Gate | | Back to Top | | |
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