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Jack Windsword
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   Posted 4/3/2008 5:03 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
crystalwizard said...

That 'wizard' sounds more Like Galactus than a wizard to me.
He could kick Thoth Amon's (sp?) ass...
 
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erazmus
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   Posted 3/30/2008 8:13 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Yes. Afterall, it was (IIRC) 1897-1898 and this was a book for children.
Mike


Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Dutchman Rescue"in Continuum SF #6
www.continuumsciencefiction.com/orders.htm

"An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern" in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises:

www.fantasistent.com/books/anthologies/BASH.php
"Stains" in Tales of the Talisman 3-1 www.zianet.com/hadrosaur/index.html
"Morning Coffee" in Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/morning-coffee-by-michael-d-turner/
"The Jewel Below" in Flashing Swords
flashingswords.sfreader.com/issues/issue8/vol2-iss8-05.htm
"Happy Landings" in Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/happy-landings-by-michael-d-turner/
"Teller of Tales" in Every day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/teller-of-tales-by-michael-d-turner/
Read "Silver Shells" In Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/silver-shells-by-michael-d-turner/

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Charles Gramlich
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   Posted 3/30/2008 12:39 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Erasmus, yes, the Tin Woodsman versus the wolves. *Shudder* I didn't know it had been rewritten at the request of the publisher. They wanted the violence toned down?


Charles Gramlich
 

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cussedness
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   Posted 3/30/2008 4:59 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
www.janraefrank.com/stories/the_whorehouse_devil.html Have a look at the concluding fight. It's a mix of action and thought, but it moves fast. that's how i like them.


Janrae Frank
I have no skeletons in my closet, they are all hanging from the yardarm.

Once there were three brothers, Brandrahoon the vampire, Isranon called the Dawnhand, speaker to spirits, and Waejonan the Accursed, first of sa’necari. Isranon defied his brothers and was destroyed, his descendants forced into the darkness.

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crystalwizard
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   Posted 3/30/2008 2:45 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jack Windsword said...
"I get bored real quick if the fight scene isn't realistic."



Does this mean kicking power levels up a few knotches is bad?



Back alley scuffles of flesh and steel are great, but if a hero has to fight a wizard, then I want to see that wizard be a wizard. I want him to launch massive swirling bolts of colorful energy that can destroy buildings. I want to see him tear open the world and summon a forbidden abomination with hellfire in its veins that can devour souls. If the hero has a "powerful magic sword," then I want to see the power.



Am I the only one in this camp? VIEW IMAGE


That 'wizard' sounds more Like Galactus than a wizard to me.
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erazmus
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   Posted 3/29/2008 3:14 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Charles,
I remember that scene. The scarecrow is fighting the witch's crows, and later the Tin Woodsman is fighting her wolves. Both parts were extensively rewritten at the request of the publisher, but yes, Baum is perhaps not the ideal author to pattern one's combat scenes from.

Mike


Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Dutchman Rescue"in Continuum SF #6
www.continuumsciencefiction.com/orders.htm

"An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern" in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises:

www.fantasistent.com/books/anthologies/BASH.php
"Stains" in Tales of the Talisman 3-1 www.zianet.com/hadrosaur/index.html
"Morning Coffee" in Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/morning-coffee-by-michael-d-turner/
"The Jewel Below" in Flashing Swords
flashingswords.sfreader.com/issues/issue8/vol2-iss8-05.htm
"Happy Landings" in Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/happy-landings-by-michael-d-turner/
"Teller of Tales" in Every day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/teller-of-tales-by-michael-d-turner/
Read "Silver Shells" In Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/silver-shells-by-michael-d-turner/

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erazmus
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   Posted 3/29/2008 3:12 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jack,
I'm sure you're not. Realistic has different levels of meaning. And POV is important in what works as well. I don't mind insane levels of power and magic, but I have to feel tension, I have to have something invested in the scene as a reader and I want the scene to pay off on that investment. Easiest way with wizards is to let the reader inside the head of one side of the fight and show the effort! Resisting magic or using it isn't supposed to be effortless, and its part of the action in that fight. If you can't see it from the outside and its important, you have to take the reader inside to show it.
Mike


Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Dutchman Rescue"in Continuum SF #6
www.continuumsciencefiction.com/orders.htm

"An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern" in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises:

www.fantasistent.com/books/anthologies/BASH.php
"Stains" in Tales of the Talisman 3-1 www.zianet.com/hadrosaur/index.html
"Morning Coffee" in Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/morning-coffee-by-michael-d-turner/
"The Jewel Below" in Flashing Swords
flashingswords.sfreader.com/issues/issue8/vol2-iss8-05.htm
"Happy Landings" in Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/happy-landings-by-michael-d-turner/
"Teller of Tales" in Every day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/teller-of-tales-by-michael-d-turner/
Read "Silver Shells" In Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/silver-shells-by-michael-d-turner/

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Jack Windsword
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   Posted 3/29/2008 2:34 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
"I get bored real quick if the fight scene isn't realistic."
 
Does this mean kicking power levels up a few knotches is bad?
 
 Back alley scuffles of flesh and steel are great, but if a hero has to fight a wizard, then I want to see that wizard be a wizard. I want him to launch massive swirling bolts of colorful energy that can destroy buildings. I want to see him tear open the world and summon a forbidden abomination with hellfire in its veins that can devour souls. If the hero has a "powerful magic sword," then I want to see the power.
 
Am I the only one in this camp? confused
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Charles Gramlich
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   Posted 3/29/2008 12:50 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
As for boring fight scenes? They hardly ever bore me as long as they give me detail. Of course, it's necessary to care about the characters. The worst fight scene I ever read was in "The Wizard of Oz" where it consists of something like: "He killed that one. Then the other one came at him and he killed that one. After a while he had killed all of them."


Charles Gramlich
 

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Charles Gramlich
Acolyte



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   Posted 3/29/2008 12:47 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
One issue to consider is the scale of the fight.  For one on one, or one on two or three, I think you definitely need the terse, quick hitting prose, with few metaphors, few adverbs, and relatively few adjectives.  Short sentences and short paragraphs convey the dynamic speed and rhythm you need.
 
However, for large scale battle scenes, you can add a bit more metaphorical and grand language, as long as the pace still rockets along pretty well.
 
As someone said, Robert E. Howard did it well.  Read his "Sowers of the Thunder" collection for great large scale battles.  David Gemmell also does fight scenes well.  "The Swords of Night and Day" has some great stuff in it.
 
 


Charles Gramlich
 

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Jaqhama
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   Posted 3/29/2008 4:17 PM (GMT 0)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
crystalwizard said...
I'm going to chime in here and ask a question in return:

When sorts of fight scenes bore you when you read them, and what sort hold your attention?

Interesting question CW.
 
I get bored real quick if the fight scene isn't realistic.
I also don't like technical terms that I don't understand...like the correct use of french for rapier fighting.
Or japanese/chinese/korean expressions for a martial arts fight scene.
I just need to know a sword thrust is a sword thrust and a side kick is a side kick.
 
What holds my attention...hmmm...tense, brutal, realistic. Both in terms of the actual moves and the writing it takes to describe it.
 
I cut to the left. I cut to the right.
Two men fell back, bleeding, crying out.
A third lunged at me, blade extended. I slid aside and my own steel seemed to barely touch the side of his neck; yet it was enough to open the vein. He dropped to his knees, already dying.
There was a space about me now.
The others had paused, no longer certain.
I was barely breathing heavily. "Who's next?" I asked.


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Rob Mancebo
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   Posted 3/29/2008 12:02 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
John M. Whalen said...
Super  example, Rob. It reads like a Sam Peckinpah fight scene. The way you intersperse Bill's perceptions in thorough detail in the midst of all the furious action slows the pace down without diluting the violence, reminiscent of Peckinpah's use of slow motion during action scenes. Bravo!
  Thanks, John. 


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John M. Whalen
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   Posted 3/29/2008 11:42 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Super  example, Rob. It reads like a Sam Peckinpah fight scene. The way you intersperse Bill's perceptions in thorough detail in the midst of all the furious action slows the pace down without diluting the violence, reminiscent of Peckinpah's use of slow motion during action scenes. Bravo!
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Rob Mancebo
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   Posted 3/28/2008 3:50 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jack Windsword said...
Dear expert,
 
My fiction severely lags where battles are concerned.  What makes a good fight scene?
Examples are appreciated.
 Jack
 
-  This is a good area to study. 
-  There's been lots of good advice given here and I'll try not to just reiterate what's been said. 
 
-  Also realize that no matter how good you are at it, someone will argue with you, so just do the best you can.  The reason for all the arguement is that people have different personal experiences with fighting and they'll judge your fight scene from their own experience rather than your character's.
 
 The biggest challenge is to thrill your reader.  Sometimes it can be done through color, sometimes through action, but you have to get the reader to care.  In creating a powerful character, it's easy to lose people's interest.   'He bagged lions by the bushel'.  Just doesn't make a good read.  
 

Action without drama:
  'The three men went for their guns, but Wild Bill shot them all before they could clear leather.  Three more turned from the bar at the sound of gunfire and pulled their pistols.  Bill shot two and killed the last with his bowie.' 
 

Same scene, adding drama(Hopefully):  
   The three men went for their guns, but Wild Bill's Navy Colt erupted in a blast of white smoke and orange flame in the lamp-lit bar and the first stranger crumpled.  Bill's Colt roared again and the second man folded as though butted by a bull.  Bill saw the third man's elbow bend as his revolver pulled free and he snapped a quick shot, low and hard, to spoil his aim.  Bill's teeth gritted and his heart hammered as he saw the dark tunnel of the man's gun barrel rising.  He cocked his .36 to fire again, but the black barrel wavered and the man collapsed. 
  
 "You sonofabit--"  A man standing at the bar accused as he went for his gun.
  
   The outlaws had friends!  Wild Bill barely had time to realize the trap he'd walked into before he'd put a pistol ball between the gunman's eyes.  That man toppled, but there were others grabbing guns.  How many?  Two moving on his left, at least.  The bar was full of powder smoke.  He couldn't see clearly.  Who was behind him?  Were there any of his own friends?  "God, not like Abilene,"  he prayed silently and felt sweat break out on his brow even as he took aim at another man who was clawing for a gun.  "Please, not Abilene all over again!"
  
   The fifth man fired, but he fired too fast and the bullet only shattered a picture frame.  Bill's fifth shot was careful and lethal.  The man's red shirt seemed to be tugged by invisible fingers, eliciting a grunt of surprise, then he fell.
  
    As Wild bill's stinging eyes surveyed the dim scene through the stinking smoke, he heard the four distinct clicks of a Colt cycling in the final man's hand.  He aimed and squeezed the trigger without thought.  The hollow snap of the hammer falling upon an empty cone was loud among the groans of the dying.
  
    "Empty,"  a gloating voice called to him,  "aren't you?" 
   
    He could only make the man out as a shadow in the gloom.  Maybe the gunman couldn't see him clearly either.  He reached for his knife--   
 

 


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MysticWino
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   Posted 3/27/2008 3:49 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

I agree with R.L. here.

I would also point out that how the experience effects the character, and how said character reacts, is as much characterization as it is action/plot/etc. And people react differently in fights. Some people laugh from nerves, some cry, some purge their bladders, others purge their bowels . . . For myself, I'm manic until the first strike; then I'm weirdly serene until the conflict is over. This is not because I've been in many fights - I make it a habit to avoid them - but because I was in a household in which the belt came out and, as they say, all hell broke out. It was a recurring theme of my childhood from 1970-1977. You get used to being hit, and you can look a guy straight in the eye with your nose broke and tell him to very calmly to back off or suffer the consequences. The adrenal rush comes before and after for those of us blessed with PSTD. When the fight is on, time really does shift to half-speed. Thought ceases. If there is mortal peril, the body takes care of itself. The consciousness insulates itself and the beaten child becomes dissociated from the external world. During that fleeting dissociation, such a person can commit what seem to others as grave atrocities simply because his animal self feels threatens and is driven by the instinct to survive - at whatever cost. So . . . at the end of the fight - that's when you either freak out and stomp and cuss the adrenillin off or you shrug and make some glib comment about "warned ya," or "that was intense".

Another funny thing . . . I have almost no recollection of the serious fights I have been in. I was either too drunk or too freaked to really imprint it on my memory. Stories I've heard from others are certainly interesting, but I don't really recall much detail. And, to be frank, most of those fights were stupid cases of me having to put my ass where my mouth had gotten me. The two worst were cases of butting into someone's else business; trying to play saviour or something. Thank God I lived through that foolishness . . .


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R. L. Copple
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   Posted 3/27/2008 1:26 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I would concur with most everything said. One aspect hinted at, but maybe not directly stated, is to infuse the fight with the emotion. We need to experience it, not just be told the individual moves. That will make people care about the protag and the fight and its outcome. That produces the emotional tension, when we can feel it in the character. Otherwise, it will just be a series of he did this and he did that.

Also, its a good idea to do some research on what a particular type of fighting is like in reality. We tend to want to duplicate Hollywood sword fights, but they are not realistic most of the time. If people attempted half the stuff they do in the movies, they would find a sword in their gut. But, jumping over someone looks cool. Its just likely to get you killed or badly injured than to fool anyone. As one example.


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Swashbuckler
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   Posted 3/27/2008 12:49 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Lyn: Thanks. Very kind of you to do that.

Anyone following the link, feel free to rate the story so Jordan knows we want more of the Sacred Genre to appear on EDF!


Steve Goble

Visit my blog, Swords Against Boredom, for news on published fiction and upcoming stories.

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Lyn
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   Posted 3/26/2008 10:22 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Steve didn't mention the link, but a great example of a tightly told fight scene is his flash that appeared at EDF on Feb 21 titled "Invincible." www.everydayfiction.com/invincible-by-steve-goble/ Here's what I wrote there:
Well done. The battle scene was tightly told and drove the story forward as it drove Ulf to his happy fate. I also appreciated the variety of descriptions you used, for example: Necromancer, Dark General, sinister being. Kept the story from becoming stale. Would liked to have heard Ulf share a parting word, one to his family, before he died. But still, a great piece of flash. Congrats.


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MysticWino
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   Posted 3/26/2008 5:32 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

I write slipstream by going slipstream. I coreograph my fights by experiencing them in my imagination. Most of the time, I'm simply describing what I see inside my head. Everything else disappears. So, I usually become the protag or the hero or victor in the melee. Consequently, if I find that I've gotten sloppy on the way to the fight, I'm usually sloppy within it. Which means the fight goes bad until I can turn it.

Advice I usually give in critiques/edits: be brief. Use strong, direct verbs. One action per sentence. Use complex/compound/complex-compound sentences to slow the action or add drama, but never to encompass an entire fight sequence. Nothing is ever 'close' it is either a hit or a miss. Show me the blade swishing past my eyes, don't tell me it missed by a hair's breadth. If the fight goes on and the adrenal surge begins to wear off, show it by picking up details like congealing blood, dragging leg, diminished field of vision due to blood or steel in eye(s), etc.

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erazmus
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   Posted 3/26/2008 3:35 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I've thought a bit more about this. I gave a panel on realism in combat in fantasy writing a couple of years back at Mile High Con, so I went back over my notes and, as I thought, my earlier reply missed something.

The tone of the work surrounding the fight scene informs greatly on how you write the fight.
Real fights are seldom heroic, comic or in any way glamorous. They are horrific. Scrambling in a dark alley with an unknown man who has a knife is, of itself, something only accuratly described in a horror story.
Getting cut, feeling the steel slide through your flesh, the muscles spasming as nerves are severed, the hot, wet sensation of blood running unseen down your arm-- these are things that, if done well, would make your reader shudder.
But you don't want your reader to shudder at every combat. Sometimes you want them to exhult at the hero's triumph, laugh, or many another emotional responce. Your fight has to match your story. You couldn't just write a fight scene between two characters and just insert it sequentially in a story about those characters and have it work, except through blind chance. The writing of the fight has to match up with the intended action of the story, it should be at the peak of one of those points on the peak and valley charts some writers use to illustrate novel pacing. Or at least fit into the action of the story.
So how you work any given fight may and usually is affected by how you are telling the rest of the tale. You may need to detract from the reality of the combat to focus the fight in a different way, to meet the needs of the story containing it.

Mike


Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Dutchman Rescue"in Continuum SF #6
www.continuumsciencefiction.com/orders.htm

"An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern" in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises:

www.fantasistent.com/books/anthologies/BASH.php
"Stains" in Tales of the Talisman 3-1 www.zianet.com/hadrosaur/index.html
"Morning Coffee" in Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/morning-coffee-by-michael-d-turner/
"The Jewel Below" in Flashing Swords
flashingswords.sfreader.com/issues/issue8/vol2-iss8-05.htm
"Happy Landings" in Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/happy-landings-by-michael-d-turner/
"Teller of Tales" in Every day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/teller-of-tales-by-michael-d-turner/
Read "Silver Shells" In Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/silver-shells-by-michael-d-turner/

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peadarog
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   Posted 3/26/2008 5:54 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The advice here is excellent. Sometimes I do writing analysis on my blog. I wrote a comparison of the "fighting styles" of two well known authors here.


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   Posted 3/26/2008 1:47 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'm one who advocates terse prose during a fight sequence ... but not at the sacrifice of detail. To me, part of the goal is the telling detail, the snap of bone or grating of sword edge against an organ, something so vivid and starkly portrayed that it kicks the reader in the gut. So go for that detail ... but don't spend a lot of words doing it. Does that make any sense?


Steve Goble

Visit my blog, Swords Against Boredom, for news on published fiction and upcoming stories.

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Lyn
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   Posted 3/26/2008 12:09 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.