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Jack Windsword
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   Posted 3/24/2008 9:01 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Dear expert,
 
My fiction severely lags where battles are concerned.  What makes a good fight scene?
Examples are appreciated.
 
Jack
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Lyn
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   Posted 3/24/2008 9:32 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ooh, great question. Ditto what Jack asked.


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DAWaverly
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   Posted 3/24/2008 9:49 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I am no expert, but I got expert advice about this.

The answer is actually in the question. Lag. Get rid of the lag.
The expert advice was simple: "In action sequences, tighter sentences help convey a sense of urgency." To me this meant shorter sentences--removing adjectives and adverbs as much as possible. Don't explain anything, just show it.
I was somewhat skeptical, but because I trusted the person giving me the advice, I followed it. And by golly it worked like a charm.


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Swashbuckler
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   Posted 3/24/2008 10:44 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Always listen to such wise advice, DA ...

Here's a bit more: The most important thing about a fight scene is the REASON FOR THE FIGHT. Make the reader care about your combatant first, let the reader know what's at stake. Then write it tightly.


Steve Goble

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Rob Santa
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   Posted 3/24/2008 10:45 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I have to admit I write two kinds of action scenes: ones where the action is expressed with a brevity that's almost criminal, and ones where I put detail in every move.

Examples follow:

1. Count DuChampes and Captain Beaulieau drew blades and engaged. Though scoring first--a light cut on the Captain's forearm--the Count's age quickly fell behind the younger man's aggression, and he was bested.

2. Count DuChampes held his rapier at middle guard. Captain Beaulieu made engagement. With blades touching only at tips, both men sidestepped to draw the opponent into a diagonal stance. The Captain pressured the Count's blade down and leaned into his thrust, but the Count stepped fully out of line and dropped a fendente that sliced open the Captain's sleeve. Captain Beaulieau hissed through clenched teeth and leapt. He pounded the Count, raining blows that rang through the chamber like off-key cymbals. Twice the Count parried too far from his weapon's ricasso and felt the numbing vibrations rob his arm of strength. Again and again the Captain thrust and cut until the Count's fingers lost all grip. His rapier fell to the ground, followed by the Count to his knees. Captain Beaulieau lifted the Count's chin with the tip of his sword and held the point there aginst his throat until his ragged breaths fogged the blade's steel.

Sloppy, I know, but a good taste of what I like to do. Pity that many editors like their action scenes taught since I love writing with detail. I don't have to have the writing be super short to imply the action in my mind's eye. Many times I like to have it slowed down so I can appreciate what's going on, the subtleties of the fight.

Anyway, my two cents.



Rob Santa
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erazmus
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   Posted 3/25/2008 12:45 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
It depends on the fight. Sometimes you have a fight-in-passing, something to get done because it needs doing that you don't want to spend a long time on-- then something like Rob's first example comes into play. Short sentences of short words makes for an intense fight.
But when the fights the thing, then I approach it differently. If I've built up too the fight, have got you, the reader, wanting the fight, then it is incumbent on me to provide a fight worth reading.
A good fight scene (of this sort) is structured much like a good short story. It opens with a hook-- or a cross or a kick to the balls or a thrust to the low line, but the opening must hook the reader, catch hold of his full attention and draw him into the action. Often I start not with description of the action itself but with the sensation of the initial engagement. An explosion of pain as the POV's nose is struck, or across that same POV's knuckles. a whirl of confusion as she falls back onto her seat. The instinctive reaction of continuing to roll away from an incoming opponent, then realization of who it is and what is happening.
And that is the opening paragraph. I'd likely (but not always) follow this by pulling back, allowing an over view of the action, comment on the enviroment and its effect on the fight. At this point pacing begins to take hold. That series of peaks and valleys comes into play as first one character and then the others get the upper hand. As the POV moves into finish, the opponent counters unexpectedly. Just as hes about to finish the POV off, they react with a different stratgem.
And of course just as the hero is about to die (or fall unconcious) they win. All the while using sentence length and word choice to tighten up as I go along, increasing the speed of the action with shorter words in shorter sentences to convey a frantic pace.
And as soon as the hero wins or loses, some sort of denoument. A reflection, a surprise utterance from the fallen, something to contrast with the battle itself.
Thats how I do a fight scene.

Mike


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John M. Whalen
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   Posted 3/25/2008 1:27 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
This is all excellent advice from acknowledged masters.

If I might throw my own views into the mix, what I like to do is give detailed, concrete descriptions of the physical action, so the reader can see it, and descriptions of what it feels like to be in that particular fight. Here's and example from "Tulip" a Jack Brand story that was in Ray Gun Revival.

"The big man leaned forward, a long arm shot across the table, and a meaty fist cracked hard against Brand’s jaw. Brand went backwards in the chair and landed on the floor, the back of the chair breaking under him. He started to get up, but Butch was already on him, pulling him up by his shirt. A bone crunching punch to the chin, sent Brand reeling back. He crashed into a wall. He started toward the big man. A pale wave of blue light shot out of the Beretta in Burnett’s hand. Brand stopped in his tracks, his body tingling with numbness. Burnett had set the gun to stun. Unable to move, Brand could only stand immobile as Butch dropped a shoulder and threw his whole body behind his next punch. It sent Brand flying backwards, crashing into a table and down on the floor."

Its a combination of sensations. And the action follows a pattern of tension and release. Hope that helps.

(It's a space western so the Beretta is a ray gun.)
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crystalwizard
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   Posted 3/25/2008 6:24 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'm going to chime in here and ask a question in return:

When sorts of fight scenes bore you when you read them, and what sort hold your attention?


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PaulMc
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   Posted 3/25/2008 6:29 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jack Windsword said...
Dear expert,

My fiction severely lags where battles are concerned. What makes a good fight scene?

Examples are appreciated.

Jack

As everyone has said, sometimes it depends on what the fight means to the story.

One of the best fight writers, IMO, was Robert E. Howard. He knew how to write a 'breathless' fight with quick action.

Here's a snippet from the opening of "The Black Stranger".

REH said...
...the Cimmerian bounded into the path behind them and plunged his knife between the shoulders of the last man. The attack was so quick and unexpected the Pict had no chance to save himself. The blade was in his heart before he knew he was in peril. The other two whirled with the instant, steel-trap quickness of savages, but even as his knife sank home, the Cimmerian struck a tremendous blow with the war-axe in his right hand. The second Pict was in the act of turning as the axe fell. It split his skull to the teeth.


That's the stuff!


-- Paul McNamee

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Hazimel
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   Posted 3/25/2008 6:38 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Return of the Sword is a textbook in battle scenes. Get it if you haven't already.

There is lots of good advice on this thread, but one of the main things you can do is go to the books you love and break down the battle scenes. Not everyone uses short, punchy sentences. They can get you so far, but sometimes you want sweep and grandeur, especially during the buildup. What's the greatest fight scene you ever read? Pick it up and examine it like you would a machine to see how it works.


Check out my story "Cold Snap" in Lords of Justice from Carnifex Press. It's an anthology of kick-ass super hero novellas.
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Jack Windsword
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   Posted 3/25/2008 9:09 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thank you all for the wonderful instruction! =)
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Lyn
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   Posted 3/26/2008 12:09 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Sword lessons at daybreak. Be there or die.


Lyn from Residential Aliens
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Swashbuckler
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   Posted 3/26/2008 1:47 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'm one who advocates terse prose during a fight sequence ... but not at the sacrifice of detail. To me, part of the goal is the telling detail, the snap of bone or grating of sword edge against an organ, something so vivid and starkly portrayed that it kicks the reader in the gut. So go for that detail ... but don't spend a lot of words doing it. Does that make any sense?


Steve Goble

Visit my blog, Swords Against Boredom, for news on published fiction and upcoming stories.

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peadarog
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   Posted 3/26/2008 5:54 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The advice here is excellent. Sometimes I do writing analysis on my blog. I wrote a comparison of the "fighting styles" of two well known authors here.


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erazmus
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   Posted 3/26/2008 3:35 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I've thought a bit more about this. I gave a panel on realism in combat in fantasy writing a couple of years back at Mile High Con, so I went back over my notes and, as I thought, my earlier reply missed something.

The tone of the work surrounding the fight scene informs greatly on how you write the fight.
Real fights are seldom heroic, comic or in any way glamorous. They are horrific. Scrambling in a dark alley with an unknown man who has a knife is, of itself, something only accuratly described in a horror story.
Getting cut, feeling the steel slide through your flesh, the muscles spasming as nerves are severed, the hot, wet sensation of blood running unseen down your arm-- these are things that, if done well, would make your reader shudder.
But you don't want your reader to shudder at every combat. Sometimes you want them to exhult at the hero's triumph, laugh, or many another emotional responce. Your fight has to match your story. You couldn't just write a fight scene between two characters and just insert it sequentially in a story about those characters and have it work, except through blind chance. The writing of the fight has to match up with the intended action of the story, it should be at the peak of one of those points on the peak and valley charts some writers use to illustrate novel pacing. Or at least fit into the action of the story.
So how you work any given fight may and usually is affected by how you are telling the rest of the tale. You may need to detract from the reality of the combat to focus the fight in a different way, to meet the needs of the story containing it.

Mike


Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Dutchman Rescue"in Continuum SF #6
www.continuumsciencefiction.com/orders.htm

"An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern" in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises:

www.fantasistent.com/books/anthologies/BASH.php
"Stains" in Tales of the Talisman 3-1 www.zianet.com/hadrosaur/index.html
"Morning Coffee" in Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/morning-coffee-by-michael-d-turner/
"The Jewel Below" in Flashing Swords
flashingswords.sfreader.com/issues/issue8/vol2-iss8-05.htm
"Happy Landings" in Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/happy-landings-by-michael-d-turner/
"Teller of Tales" in Every day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/teller-of-tales-by-michael-d-turner/
Read "Silver Shells" In Every Day Fiction
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MysticWino
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   Posted 3/26/2008 5:32 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

I write slipstream by going slipstream. I coreograph my fights by experiencing them in my imagination. Most of the time, I'm simply describing what I see inside my head. Everything else disappears. So, I usually become the protag or the hero or victor in the melee. Consequently, if I find that I've gotten sloppy on the way to the fight, I'm usually sloppy within it. Which means the fight goes bad until I can turn it.

Advice I usually give in critiques/edits: be brief. Use strong, direct verbs. One action per sentence. Use complex/compound/complex-compound sentences to slow the action or add drama, but never to encompass an entire fight sequence. Nothing is ever 'close' it is either a hit or a miss. Show me the blade swishing past my eyes, don't tell me it missed by a hair's breadth. If the fight goes on and the adrenal surge begins to wear off, show it by picking up details like congealing blood, dragging leg, diminished field of vision due to blood or steel in eye(s), etc.

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Lyn
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   Posted 3/26/2008 10:22 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Steve didn't mention the link, but a great example of a tightly told fight scene is his flash that appeared at EDF on Feb 21 titled "Invincible." www.everydayfiction.com/invincible-by-steve-goble/ Here's what I wrote there:
Well done. The battle scene was tightly told and drove the story forward as it drove Ulf to his happy fate. I also appreciated the variety of descriptions you used, for example: Necromancer, Dark General, sinister being. Kept the story from becoming stale. Would liked to have heard Ulf share a parting word, one to his family, before he died. But still, a great piece of flash. Congrats.


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Swashbuckler
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   Posted 3/27/2008 12:49 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Lyn: Thanks. Very kind of you to do that.

Anyone following the link, feel free to rate the story so Jordan knows we want more of the Sacred Genre to appear on EDF!


Steve Goble

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R. L. Copple
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   Posted 3/27/2008 1:26 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I would concur with most everything said. One aspect hinted at, but maybe not directly stated, is to infuse the fight with the emotion. We need to experience it, not just be told the individual moves. That will make people care about the protag and the fight and its outcome. That produces the emotional tension, when we can feel it in the character. Otherwise, it will just be a series of he did this and he did that.

Also, its a good idea to do some research on what a particular type of fighting is like in reality. We tend to want to duplicate Hollywood sword fights, but they are not realistic most of the time. If people attempted half the stuff they do in the movies, they would find a sword in their gut. But, jumping over someone looks cool. Its just likely to get you killed or badly injured than to fool anyone. As one example.


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MysticWino
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   Posted 3/27/2008 3:49 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

I agree with R.L. here.

I would also point out that how the experience effects the character, and how said character reacts, is as much characterization as it is action/plot/etc. And people react differently in fights. Some people laugh from nerves, some cry, some purge their bladders, others purge their bowels . . . For myself, I'm manic until the first strike; then I'm weirdly serene until the conflict is over. This is not because I've been in many fights - I make it a habit to avoid them - but because I was in a household in which the belt came out and, as they say, all hell broke out. It was a recurring theme of my childhood from 1970-1977. You get used to being hit, and you can look a guy straight in the eye with your nose broke and tell him to very calmly to back off or suffer the consequences. The adrenal rush comes before and after for those of us blessed with PSTD. When the fight is on, time really does shift to half-speed. Thought ceases. If there is mortal peril, the body takes care of itself. The consciousness insulates itself and the beaten child becomes dissociated from the external world. During that fleeting dissociation, such a person can commit what seem to others as grave atrocities simply because his animal self feels threatens and is driven by the instinct to survive - at whatever cost. So . . . at the end of the fight - that's when you either freak out and stomp and cuss the adrenillin off or you shrug and make some glib comment about "warned ya," or "that was intense".

Another funny thing . . . I have almost no recollection of the serious fights I have been in. I was either too drunk or too freaked to really imprint it on my memory. Stories I've heard from others are certainly interesting, but I don't really recall much detail. And, to be frank, most of those fights were stupid cases of me having to put my ass where my mouth had gotten me. The two worst were cases of butting into someone's else business; trying to play saviour or something. Thank God I lived through that foolishness . . .


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Rob Mancebo
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   Posted 3/28/2008 3:50 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jack Windsword said...
Dear expert,
 
My fiction severely lags where battles are concerned.  What makes a good fight scene?
Examples are appreciated.
 Jack
 
-  This is a good area to study. 
-  There's been lots of good advice given here and I'll try not to just reiterate what's been said. 
 
-  Also realize that no matter how good you are at it, someone will argue with you, so just do the best you can.  The reason for all the arguement is that people have different personal experiences with fighting and they'll judge your fight scene from their own experience rather than your character's.
 
 The biggest challenge is to thrill your reader.  Sometimes it can be done through color, sometimes through action, but you have to get the reader to care.  In creating a powerful character, it's easy to lose people's interest.   'He bagged lions by the bushel'.  Just doesn't make a good read.  
 

Action without drama:
  'The three men went for their guns, but Wild Bill shot them all before they could clear leather.  Three more turned from the bar at the sound of gunfire and pulled their pistols.  Bill shot two and killed the last with his bowie.' 
 

Same scene, adding drama(Hopefully):  
   The three men went for their guns, but Wild Bill's Navy Colt erupted in a blast of white smoke and orange flame in the lamp-lit bar and the first stranger crumpled.  Bill's Colt roared again and the second man folded as though butted by a bull.  Bill saw the third man's elbow bend as his revolver pulled free and he snapped a quick shot, low and hard, to spoil his aim.  Bill's teeth gritted and his heart hammered as he saw the dark tunnel of the man's gun barrel rising.  He cocked his .36 to fire again, but the black barrel wavered and the man collapsed. 
  
 "You sonofabit--"  A man standing at the bar accused as he went for his gun.
  
   The outlaws had friends!  Wild Bill barely had time to realize the trap he'd walked into before he'd put a pistol ball between the gunman's eyes.  That man toppled, but there were others grabbing guns.  How many?  Two moving on his left, at least.  The bar was full of powder smoke.  He couldn't see clearly.  Who was behind him?  Were there any of his own friends?  "God, not like Abilene,"  he prayed silently and felt sweat break out on his brow even as he took aim at another man who was clawing for a gun.  "Please, not Abilene all over again!"
  
   The fifth man fired, but he fired too fast and the bullet only shattered a picture frame.  Bill's fifth shot was careful and lethal.  The man's red shirt seemed to be tugged by invisible fingers, eliciting a grunt of surprise, then he fell.
  
    As Wild bill's stinging eyes surveyed the dim scene through the stinking smoke, he heard the four distinct clicks of a Colt cycling in the final man's hand.  He aimed and squeezed the trigger without thought.  The hollow snap of the hammer falling upon an empty cone was loud among the groans of the dying.
  
    "Empty,"  a gloating voice called to him,  "aren't you?" 
   
    He could only make the man out as a shadow in the gloom.  Maybe the gunman couldn't see him clearly either.  He reached for his knife--   
 

 


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John M. Whalen
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   Posted 3/29/2008 11:42 AM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Super  example, Rob. It reads like a Sam Peckinpah fight scene. The way you intersperse Bill's perceptions in thorough detail in the midst of all the furious action slows the pace down without diluting the violence, reminiscent of Peckinpah's use of slow motion during action scenes. Bravo!
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Rob Mancebo
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   Posted 3/29/2008 12:02 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
John M. Whalen said...
Super  example, Rob. It reads like a Sam Peckinpah fight scene. The way you intersperse Bill's perceptions in thorough detail in the midst of all the furious action slows the pace down without diluting the violence, reminiscent of Peckinpah's use of slow motion during action scenes. Bravo!
  Thanks, John. 


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