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Rob Mancebo
Adept

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   Posted 4/14/2008 1:25 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

 

"Who dares wins" 

I aim high.  When it's rejected, I aim lower.  I don't generally waste time on 4thlvof markets because they don't look good on a resumae.  If something's not worth anything to a publisher, then I need to work on it until it is.  I'll toss it into a file to re-work when I'm better. 

I may only get a penny an hour by the time I'm done,  rolleyes   but I do get paid.  "Amatures give away their work, professionals get paid."  (Sometimes I kick myself for hammering out a 10,000 word story and selling it for $10., but then I have to remind myself, it's a hobby, thankfully I don't have to make a living at it.  Maybe someday, when I'm better at it . . . 

Now there are other sorts of pay than cash though.  If I see a project I like or a chance to get feedback--and feedback from honest people who like stories is worth more than semi-pro pay, I'll be glad to put in the work to submit a piece. 

I've made more this quarter than I have any year since I've been writing, so I guess the snowball just keeps rolling and getting bigger as time passes.  It must be working to some extent.   

Maybe I'll be able to claim it as a 'side business' this year rather than a 'hobby'. 

 


Adventure-History-Fantasy-Folklore

www.geocities.com/robmancebo/ 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Charles Gramlich
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   Posted 4/14/2008 12:01 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Money is always one consideration for me, but not typically the main one.  I'll typically submit to paying markets first, but if I have two suitable markets and the one I'd rather be in pays less I'll go for that one.  I've also given plenty of stories away essentially because I wanted to be in a particular magazine, or liked the editors, or other writers in the mag.  Or because I was asked.
 
I mean, I know I'm not going to make a living off of short stories, and though I like money as well as the next person, it's not like I'm going to be earning enough to pay my mortgage off a single sale. 
 
The main issues for me are, how much do I want to write a particular tale, how do I feel about it once it's done, and is there a challenge in it for me.
 
 
 
 


Charles Gramlich
 

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Lyn
Today's Word: Sub(sendmoney)liminal



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   Posted 3/26/2008 1:51 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Great discussion. The writer's motivation is key (at least in my case) as well. As more of a 'hobbyist' I'm interested in connecting with other writer/editor enthusiasts (I enjoy the camaraderie) with a concomitant goal of becoming a better writer/editor. And of course, one way to do this is to strive to break into increasingly more difficult markets. Although I do appreciate Brian Dolton's contra argument. His approach makes much sense - especially since every market is new at one point or another. Why the intimidation factor exists for me, I don't know! lol Thanks all for the advice.


Lyn from Residential Aliens
Purchase ResAliens Anthology

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RHFay
Sage



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   Posted 3/26/2008 1:10 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
tchernabyelo said...
 
...Submitting to "4theluv" markets doesn't tell you much... 
Since my experience has been mostly with speculative poetry, it may be somewhat different.  I think certain "4 the luv" markets can tell you something, depending upon the individual situation.  I've dealt with at least one "4 the luv" poetry editor that is also an editor or co-editor at one or two pay markets as well.
 
Getting into the right "4 the luv" market can start to get your name noticed by editors and other writers - at least a few of the contributors to the above-mentioned market are editors as well.  I think if you start sharing enough ToCs, your name will be recognised by editors.  Obviously, that doesn't guarantee acceptance, but every little bit helps.
 
I think "4 the luv" markets should really be judged on a case-by-case basis.  And sometimes, in terms of speculative poetry, the difference between a "pay" market and "4 the luv" is only a buck or two.  I'm certainly not getting rich off my poetry sales! 


"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!" 
 
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions 
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Nicholas
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   Posted 3/26/2008 12:13 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Brian said...
I have sent stuff I thought was absolutely right and been rejected, and I have sent stuff that I was not at all confident of and had it purchased.  
I've had that same experience several times, as have others on this board. My own theory is this: if an editor of a magazine that takes a certain narrow type of fiction has been going through the slush pile reading through dozens and dozens of just that type of story, then suddenly comes to your slightly-outside-the-confines story, it may "leap out," becoming memorable by contrast.
 
Of course, this doesn't happen all too often. But when it does happen, that may be the reason.


http://ozment.livejournal.com
 
 

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tchernabyelo
Acolyte

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   Posted 3/25/2008 6:04 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
So far, I have only submit to paying markets, and only very rarely to markets that will pay less than 1 cent per word (I think I have three sales to date that work out below that level).   I make no bones about this.   While I am aware that it's a very ambitious goal, I do want to be a professional author, and it doesn't feel right, with that goal in mind, to "give" my stories away. 
 
Also, I don't agree with "working your way up".   You need to find out how "good" you are in order to improve.   Submitting to "4theluv" markets doesn't tell you much.   Submitting to paying markets tells you whether or not you are capable of pro level work.
 
My first ever submission was to a pro rate market, and it sold.   I've only had one more pro rate sale since, though.   I can sell pretty consistently at the semi-pro level, but it's clear I need to improve further if I want to sell regularly at pro level.
 
And as for market fit... well, apart from the utterly obvious (don't send fantasy to SF-only markets, etc), I no longer try to second-guess editors.   I have sent stuff I thought was absolutely right and been rejected, and I have sent stuff that I was not at all confident of and had it purchased.   Let the editor make the decision.   Get your work out there, and if it fails at market A, send it to market B, and keep on doing that until either it sells, or you die :-)


Brian Dolton
 
Yi Qin stories:
"The Box Of Beautiful Things" - IGMS#3
"The Man Who Was Never Afraid" - Abyss and Apex #20
"At Blue Crane Falls" - Abyss and Apex #25
"Where No Wind Blows" - Staffs & Starships #2
"What The Sea Refuses" - Black Gate (forthcoming)
"What The Heart Bears" - Black Gate (forthcoming)
"Above The Clouds" - Paper Blossoms, Sharpened Steel (forthcoming)
 
Other Land Of Wind And Ghosts stories:
"The Dragon Path" - Fictitious Force (forthcoming)
"Three Out Of Four" - Sorcerous Signals Feb-Apr 08 
 
Stories in other settings:
"The Unicorn Hunter" - OG's Speculative Fiction #8
"Call Centre" - Necrotic Tissue #1
"When Winter Came" - ASIM #32
"Cold Fire" - Flashing Swords #9
"St. Saviour And The Devil's Dandy" - Flashing Swords (forthcoming)

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John M. Whalen
flashg



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   Posted 3/24/2008 6:40 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I used to believe in sending stories to the top market first and then work your way down to the freebies. But I quickly learned that without a name and some reputation behind you, you've got as much chance of getting in those publications as a black man had of getting in the KKK. I've only been writing fiction since about 2005. I had years of experience in journalism and non fiction before that. I sold freelance stuff to the Washington Post on films and television. Travel articles for the Washington Times. But it isn't any help at all cracking the fiction markets. So now I write mainly stories I want to write without worrying about what market to send them to. (Although I have to admit the reason I'm writing sci-fi and fantasy is that it seems easier to break into publishing with genre stories than by trying to write for the New Yorker.) Then after they are finished I send them out to whatever paying market looks like they'll take it. I never submit to non-paying markets anymore. I did when I began. But I feel I should get something for my efforts, otherwise its just a vanity trip. My theory is that if I get enough stuff out there with my name on it, word will filter up to the bigger markets, and in time, I'll start sending stuff to Van Gelder, etc again. And if that doesn't happen, I don't really care. I enjoy what I'm doing and that's what matters most to me.
And don't get me wrong, I'm writing genre stories because I like them more than literary stories. But I could just as easily turn to private eye, horror, jungle adventure, etc. as scifi and S&S. And if I woke up tomorrow and got an email from an editor at the New Yorker begging for a navel-gazer, I'd be happy to oblige.
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Gustavo
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   Posted 3/24/2008 12:40 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I send to the top paying markets first, and work my way down unless:
1) I know the editor and want to be involved with a project. I'm currently writing a story for the "Return to Luna" contest / antho, because I know that Hadley Rille puts together some great ToCs, and all the "right" people read their anthos. Counts more as exposure perhaps. Likewise, if someone on this board is looking for a story and I have a suitable one on hand, I am likely to send it out without looking at pay rates. It helps that I have something like 35 unpublished stories in circulation...
2) Market doesn't accept e-subs. Which means my dream market right now is Strange Horizons. Don't trust Mexican postal system... Will resume postal subs when I get back to Argentina.


Visit my livejournal!  http://bondo-ba.livejournal.com/ 

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erazmus
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   Posted 3/23/2008 10:54 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The whole subscription thing is a seperate but related topic.

I try to get _a_ copy of a recent issue of any print mag or subscription only electronic publication I'm think of submitting to. If I really enjoy the magazine and if I can, I'll subscribe for as long as I can-- I did with Black Gate and do with Weird Tales. But I can't subscribe to everything I'd like to, I certainly can't subscribe to everything I'm likely to submit to. That would take hundreds of dollars a year and I don't usually make hundreds of dollars a year from my writing yet. I can't afford to do it otherwise.

But I don't give up entirely on a pub just because I don't care for what they have been publishing lately. Afterall, they can only select from what comes in. I'm realistic about what to send where when, but I'll still take a flyer on a market I don't care for now and then. Afterall, the editor may have seen the error of his or her's way and take me this time. There is no quicker way to get me to really like most pubs than for them to run a story of mine.

Bear in mind my specific situation may not apply to you. I write Fantasy, Science Fiction, Horror, Crime, Mystery and odd-ball stuff. I'm poor, even by my own standards. If I could I'd subscribe to every dang market out there. If I was smart I'd start a local writers club and get everybody to pool market subscriptions and share out samples. Instead I buy piles of recent back-issue magazines cheap when I can, haunt the local Borders and B&N magazine racks to pick up what I can and muddle through as best I can.

I submit "blind" more often than I'd like. But whats a guy to do, eh?

Mike


Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Dutchman Rescue"in Continuum SF #6
www.continuumsciencefiction.com/orders.htm

"An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern" in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises:

www.fantasistent.com/books/anthologies/BASH.php
"Stains" in Tales of the Talisman 3-1 www.zianet.com/hadrosaur/index.html
"Morning Coffee" in Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/morning-coffee-by-michael-d-turner/
"The Jewel Below" in Flashing Swords
flashingswords.sfreader.com/issues/issue8/vol2-iss8-05.htm
"Happy Landings" in Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/happy-landings-by-michael-d-turner/
"Teller of Tales" in Every day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/teller-of-tales-by-michael-d-turner/
Read "Silver Shells" In Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/silver-shells-by-michael-d-turner/

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T A Markitan
aka Wicked



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   Posted 3/23/2008 3:47 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
My first story went to Writers of the Future. That was the gauge I used to determine if I should be sending things out at all. It got bounced, but before the postage had even dried on that story, I was already rewriting it. As soon as it hit the mail box I realized what was wrong with it. The rewrite got an Honorable Mention.
From there, following popular advice, I sent my next story to one of the top three and got a subscription to the magazine. I have since reevaluated that strategy, considering I didn't even open my last magazine, or have any desire to open it.
Now I only send to markets that interest me, reader loyalty ranking higher than pay.


I do horrible things to punctuation.

"careful what you wish
you may regret it
careful what you wish
you just might get it"
Metallica~King Nothing

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RHFay
Sage



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   Posted 3/23/2008 1:09 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

I've said some of this before, but I'll repeat what I said anyway...

Personally, I try to send my poetry to pay markets first, except for certain pieces that were created specifically for certain "4 the luv" markets.  I do try to send to "likely" markets first, ones that seem to like my style.  Occasionally I will write something with a certain theme for a specific market, like my submissions to Hungur (the theme of that particular market has inspired a few specific works).

I will send my more "general" works to whatever market is open and seems a likely fit (for instance, I wouldn't send a sci-fi poem set in the future or something referencing modern electronics to The Willows).  After several rejections of various styles and themes by certain markets, I'm unlikely to send them "more of the same".  I might try these markets again, but they wouldn't be my first choice, and I would have to have something significantly different from my usual to send their way.  (I'm not trying to "play editor" so much as decide how best to spend my time and effort.  Some markets are quite specific about what they will take.)

The higher paying markets may be a bit higher on my list, but only if I don't already have something in their slush.  If I do, and they voice a dislike of multiple submissions, I will send elsewhere.  I'm also beginning to prefer markets that I've dealt with already, but I'm certainly trying to break into different ones as well.  I rarely hold a piece just for a particular market because I feel it would be more worthwhile to send it out and see what happens than letting it sit on my hardrive and hope a specific market will like it.

As for postal submissions, I don't send my poetry through the mail.  It's easier to just send electronic submissions.  Perhaps I will try to send a poem to Asimov's some time, but the majority of markets that take speculative poetry take (or even prefer) electronic submissions.  


"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!" 
 
Richard H. Fay - Azure Lion Productions 
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erazmus
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   Posted 3/23/2008 8:19 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hannah,
It never works out because of the whole "what is open now?" question, which we haven't really addressed. When I have a story done I don't wait for the perfect market to open up, usually anyways. Since I get rejections much more often than acceptances waiting just makes it take longer for that story to find the editor that wants it, even if I think it'll fit great at XYZ.
If XYZ is open, I send it. If not, back to the top paying market I think might take it-- that takes e-subs. If XYZ opens while its out . . .thats a toughie. Usually I wait to hear back but lately I'd usually just send it.

Mike


Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Dutchman Rescue"in Continuum SF #6
www.continuumsciencefiction.com/orders.htm

"An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern" in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises:

www.fantasistent.com/books/anthologies/BASH.php
"Stains" in Tales of the Talisman 3-1 www.zianet.com/hadrosaur/index.html
"Morning Coffee" in Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/morning-coffee-by-michael-d-turner/
"The Jewel Below" in Flashing Swords
flashingswords.sfreader.com/issues/issue8/vol2-iss8-05.htm
"Happy Landings" in Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/happy-landings-by-michael-d-turner/
"Teller of Tales" in Every day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/teller-of-tales-by-michael-d-turner/
Read "Silver Shells" In Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/silver-shells-by-michael-d-turner/

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Firlefanz
Sage



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   Posted 3/23/2008 5:45 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I market my stories basically as Mike does. Not that I have landed much yet, admittedly.

Most of the time, I work along those priorities:

1) Story fits the market: That's my biggest priority. No sense in sending a story to a market that'll reject it anyway.

2) Email subs: Sending manuscripts to the US from Germany by snail mail costs serious money. I make exceptions for the real top markets, because otherwise it simply doesn't pay. Mags that take email subs get my stories more often.

3) Pay scale: If there are a number of markets that offer similar chances, I go for the highest paying ones first.

Exceptions: Magazines / anthologies run by people here on SFReader. Personal contact is important to me, and I feel part of this network.

Looking at it like that, it's rather easy. I keep telling myself to make a list of possible markets for each story and then put them into priority order, but somehow it never works out that way. roll


- Call me Firle.

Hannah Steenbock

Mystical Adventures
Sphaira

"Die arische Frau" in Pandaimonion - Die Formel des Lebens
"Der Weg nach Eridani" in Earth Rocks 3/2007 (pdf)

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Nicholas
Sage



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   Posted 3/22/2008 8:17 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I think I can answer your question, Lyn, by pretty much quoting erazmus verbatim. Your approach and mine sound pretty much the same, Mike.


http://ozment.livejournal.com
 
 

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erazmus
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   Posted 3/22/2008 3:16 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I send a new story out to either the best paying market I think might take it _or_ the place I intended it to go to--Say an anthology I thought was cool, a buddy from SFReader's new e-zine, or a well established semi-pro zine I've always wanted to be featured in (Weird Tales).
If it gets rejected from that, its off to the top, with the caveat that I work through a class of markets that take e-subs before I start mailing things out. Cause that takes money.

Mike


Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Dutchman Rescue"in Continuum SF #6
www.continuumsciencefiction.com/orders.htm

"An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern" in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises:

www.fantasistent.com/books/anthologies/BASH.php
"Stains" in Tales of the Talisman 3-1 www.zianet.com/hadrosaur/index.html
"Morning Coffee" in Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/morning-coffee-by-michael-d-turner/
"The Jewel Below" in Flashing Swords
flashingswords.sfreader.com/issues/issue8/vol2-iss8-05.htm
"Happy Landings" in Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/happy-landings-by-michael-d-turner/
"Teller of Tales" in Every day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/teller-of-tales-by-michael-d-turner/
Read "Silver Shells" In Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/silver-shells-by-michael-d-turner/

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crystalwizard
Forum Moderator



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   Posted 3/22/2008 3:00 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Lyn said...
What's your all's philosophy on 'cracking new markets' and working your way up the pay scale? Once you have some writing credits to your name and are seeing some success in the '4theLuv' markets, do you start subbing to more paying, semi-pro, and pro markets? And do you simply leave those markets where you 'cut your teeth' behind?


I just send stuff to places I think it fits. I tend not to pay attention to how much they pay, or if they pay.
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nathan
Sage



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   Posted 3/22/2008 2:43 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
With the exception of when you write for a subgenre or genre which doesn't have representation among the "big name" ranks (i.e. you want to write a S&S tale and know no one paying above 5-cents a word is going to take it--or a weird western or a boxing story or whatever) then usually I always had a reverse hierarchy philosphy.
 
Go to the larger money/exposure (admittedly not always the same) then work your way down to the 4-luv markets. Always aim high but never be too proud to take what you can get.
 
I've broken this rule out of other motivations to be sure. I've written stories I was pretty sure wouldn't go anywhere other than to say, Flashing Swords under Howard Jones (my pirate story for example) because I wanted to be part of something. In the same vein I wrote a short short piece only because I liked so many people on this board who'd appeared in a magazine and wanted to be a part of that. Strangely the piece sold for more than I would have gotten had it been accepted in the first place--which seems to indicate a reverse of what I just said, but really that was an anomally based on other than stricitly monetary concerns. So there are exceptions to the "rule" (if you want to call it that) but I always assumed most people did a top down approach to moving stories; but I could be wildly out of touch.


VIEW IMAGE
"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
 
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages."

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Lyn
Today's Word: Sub(sendmoney)liminal



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   Posted 3/22/2008 1:48 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
What's your all's philosophy on 'cracking new markets' and working your way up the pay scale? Once you have some writing credits to your name and are seeing some success in the '4theLuv' markets, do you start subbing to more paying, semi-pro, and pro markets? And do you simply leave those markets where you 'cut your teeth' behind?


Lyn from Residential Aliens
Purchase ResAliens Anthology

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