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Anaconda
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   Posted 5/23/2008 3:31 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Thank you for all the information, especially Frank for
http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=210
which I found fascinating.

I’m now going to wax Ferengi, and ask: where is the profit?


Alec Anaconda, author of “Slaves of Janice”, “After Janice”  and “Extreme Vengeance”.

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Lyn
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   Posted 5/13/2008 12:12 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Check out the experimental WIKI on this topic that I started here:

sfreader.com/SFReaderWiki/tabid/91/topic/Second%20Page/Default.aspx

I just tossed a bunch of comments from this thread into a post and will let someone else who likes to edit and organize make sense of it all...

Upate: Oops, my post was already deleted... that's the bad thing about wikis...
:-(


Lyn from ResAliens
Reviewing Zines at The Fix
Reviewing Short Stories at My Blog
And Promoting Strange Worlds of Lunacy

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Frank
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   Posted 4/16/2008 4:49 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
MysticWino said...
I tend to use sorcery.
I needed about ten minutes to stop laughing at this one and nearly regurgitated a half glass of sugar-free lemonade through my nose.
 
As for the whole bit about the cosmic oven mits, I felt like i was reading the lyrics to a Frank Zappa song. Good times, indeed...
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Frank
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   Posted 4/16/2008 4:39 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
"Restarting" a planet core (or solar core as in the film Sunshine) is pretty far-fetched stuff. These ideas have only vague and tenuous basis in science as we know it. Battling entropy is about as useful as persuing the invention of a perpetual motion machine. The universe expands, heat and energy are dissipated forever, deal with it. In another 200 billion years or so it's possible that all matter in the universe will be spread so thin, stars and planets will no longer form, and so we are all bound for the eternal void. Cling to your fetishes of Anubis and pray...
 
...or, smoke em if ya got em.
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Frank
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   Posted 4/16/2008 4:26 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Anaconda said...
I’m fascinated that nobody questioned whether mankind has the right to terraform Mars, before we have proven that nothing is already living there.

Mars is mostly likely lifeless now, but that doesn't mean it was always so. There is some mineral evidence supporting the idea of large bodies of water early in Mars' past. Maybe not oceans exactly but large lakes were very possible. Whether or not life evolved in these lakes depends somewhat on how long these water bodies persisted at the surface before evaporating in the thinning atmosphere or taking the form of (very) deep permafrost.
 
On our own planet the earliest microbial species have long since retreated to places deep inside earth's crust where there is no oxygen, which is toxic to them. (Yes, some of earth's earliest microbes are still beneath us but we can't expose them without killing them because there was no oxygen in the atmosphere of early earth). On mars we may not be able to find any such hidden life (or even evidence that it once existed there) until we actually warm up that planet and see what surfaces along with the melted permafrost. Of course by then the damage may already be done and we could either wipe clean any evidence of such life or revive it just before we kill it with whatever process we use to warm up Mars.
 
This moral dilemma has been addressed in many science fiction stories and several non-fiction articles and books. Click here:
 
 

The author Mark Lupisella, in 1997, wrote in an issue of Space Policy, "Could we forgive ourselves if we caused the extinction of the first extraterrestrial species we came into contact with?".

https://aerospacescholars.jsc.nasa.gov/HAS/cirr/em/10/10.cfm

Robert Zubrin, surprisingly, comes off as pretty harsh on any possible LGMs in this interview:

http://www.spacedaily.com/news/mars-terraform-04h.html

I could post dozens more links but you get the idea...

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Edward Knight
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   Posted 4/16/2008 4:15 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I think Fred has the right idea. If you create more atmosphere then the planet surface will warm. After the surface warms you'd need a supply of water. That too could come from the polar caps. Once you have warmth and water you could introduce some plant life. The plants produce oxygen. Then you could introduce some animal life (probably microscopic first and work your way up). In a few thousand years you might have something.

I seems more likely to me that it would be easier to create some kind of biosphere on the Martian surface. It would be easier to work within a smaller space than terraforming the whole planet.

I'd build a space station orbiting Mars first. Then we could fly materials to the International Space Station by shuttle. Then ship to the Mars Station. Then shuttle it down again. As soon as you have a dome made from all those plexiglas plates then you can start building an atmosphere within. Then the idea of drilling might be helpful to tap into whatever geothermal warmth is available (could also be a source of power.)

Yeah, I like the idea of bubbles on Mars better than terraforming the whole place at once. That way we can colonize like the days of old. All the religious factions could build their own bubble. All the different national and racial groups could have bubbles. Before long it would be just like good old Earth. People killing each other, rockets flying, invasions, abuse, trade agreements, treaties, government collapse, spies, armies, social issues---politics as usual. A whole planet full of bubbles where nobody gets along would make for some great scifi.


Edward Knight
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Jordan Lapp
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   Posted 4/16/2008 4:06 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I get that. I just didn't see how it was possible to "restart" the core with a controlled nuclear explosion.


Jordan Lapp
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Frank
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   Posted 4/16/2008 4:03 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jordan Lapp said...
Where did you get that we need to restart the planet's core? Mars has a magnetic field, and therefore has a molten core.
Mars' magnetic field is very weak. The easiest answer to this is that Mars' core is mostly cold, if not completely so. Mars was more geologocally active in it's distant past, made obvious by the numerous (and very large) volcanos that dot its face. A few of these vocanos still occasionally sigh very thin clouds of gas. Clearly there is some latent heat trapped beneath the Martian surface, but probably not enough heat to truely revive any of the volcanos so far observed. As far as we can tell right now there are no plate techtonics happening on Mars either, signifying a geologically dead planet.
 
That means the solar wind is eroding what little is left of Mars' atmosphere, making long term habitation there impractical for life as we know it. But don't take my word for it. Click the links below:
 
 
 
 
 
These are all brief articles and I found all of them helpful.
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Frank
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   Posted 4/16/2008 3:46 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Anaconda said...
Does anybody know of a case where two celestial masses share an orbit?
Yes! There are at least two examples in our very own solar system. Click the link below to read a brief article about them:
 
 
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Jordan Lapp
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   Posted 3/28/2008 5:40 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
MysticWino said...

 We fire 200 Billion megatons worth of nuclear bombs to explode precisely at the same time to re-ignite the planet core,

Where did you get that we need to restart the planet's core? Mars has a magnetic field, and therefore has a molten core.
 
As far as I know, the idea of detonating nukes under the surface is a) to melt the regolith and thicken the atmosphere and b) to help warm the planet through radioactive heat.


Jordan Lapp
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Jordan Lapp
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   Posted 3/28/2008 5:15 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Anaconda said...
I hate to ask, but how does one move a planet?
A gravity tractor would do it.


Jordan Lapp
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FredLand
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   Posted 3/28/2008 12:16 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The CO2 approach has been used before and is a real theory. Nuke the polar ice caps (mostly CO2) to create a greenhouse environment. That heats the planet and creates more atmosphere. Then go for the algea and mold and so forth. That, of course, takes years and years and years.

Fred
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MysticWino
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   Posted 3/14/2008 2:29 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Nope. Sorry. But I think it's more complicated than simply mass-flux. Vulcanism and magnetic fields play into the equation - as well as any other massive bodies near enough to interact in those fields (gravitational and radiational). Why collide? A massive moon with a fairly weak attraction and on an eliptical orbit might eventually shoot off into space. Then a number of posibilities arise from that. Especially considering all the posibilities of where that occurs in relation to the center of the solar system, other planets, stroid fields, etc. And the particular make-up of the moon - living core? dead? ice? plasma? Iron? gas? etc. . . . I love History Channel's "Universe" series!
Anaconda said...
Does anybody know of a case where two celestial masses share an orbit?
It seems to me that, as planets and moons are prone to change slightly in mass, they must eventually collide. roll roll


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Anaconda
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   Posted 3/14/2008 1:54 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Does anybody know of a case where two celestial masses share an orbit?
It seems to me that, as planets and moons are prone to change slightly in mass, they must eventually collide. roll roll


Alec Anaconda, author of “Slaves of Janice”, “After Janice”  and “Extreme Vengeance”.

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Gustavo
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   Posted 3/7/2008 8:14 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I was thinking of mounting a big rocket onto a big asteroid and bashing the planet with it. But, of course, the kitchen mitts are much more practical...


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MysticWino
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   Posted 3/7/2008 6:54 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Yeah. You have to start from the lotus position and puff up your aura on a cosmic scale before donning them . . .


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Anaconda
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   Posted 3/7/2008 5:32 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I’m tempted to ask how to move gargantuan mitts, but I suspect the answer will be with leviathan hands.
turn  


Alec Anaconda, author of “Slaves of Janice”, “After Janice”  and “Toxic Retribution”.

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Rob Mancebo
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   Posted 3/7/2008 12:44 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Anaconda said...
hop  Venus would still be far too hot.
I hate to ask, but how does one move a planet?
-   Really-really big kitchen mitts.


Adventure-History-Fantasy-Folklore

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MysticWino
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   Posted 3/7/2008 12:22 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Manipulate a solar storm? Use a solar hurricane to flare out enough force to shift things? Take good aim and serious science, but . . . is it possible?


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Nathan Jerpe
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   Posted 3/6/2008 7:28 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Anaconda said...
hop  Venus would still be far too hot.
I hate to ask, but how does one move a planet?

Introduce a very large mass somewhere else?


http://roguelikefiction.com

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MysticWino
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   Posted 3/6/2008 4:03 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I tend to use sorcery. The Finukili use science and a pi-based mathematics in conjunction with the Law of Attraction and the Law of Intention. Redirecting a moving body is easier than using a relatively stationary one. Also helps to harness solar radiation/magnetism/gravitation.


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Anaconda
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   Posted 3/6/2008 3:20 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
hop  Venus would still be far too hot.
I hate to ask, but how does one move a planet?


Alec Anaconda, author of “Slaves of Janice”, “After Janice”  and “Toxic Retribution”.

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Gustavo
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   Posted 3/6/2008 2:21 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Better than terraforming Mars: push Venus into Earth orbit (at the other end of the Orbit) and terraform that!


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Anaconda
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   Posted 3/6/2008 12:53 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
That was weird, I mention the moon and before I finish typing, another moon post has hit the forum before mine.


Alec Anaconda, author of “Slaves of Janice”, “After Janice”  and “Toxic Retribution”.

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Anaconda
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   Posted 3/6/2008 12:47 PM (GMT -4)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks for the ideas.
The suggestion “Red, Green and Blue Mars” was most helpful, leading to many informative sites.
I’m fascinated that nobody questioned whether mankind has the right to terraform Mars, before we have proven that nothing is already living there.
Perhaps we should start transforming our moon first. rolleyes


Alec Anaconda, author of “Slaves of Janice”, “After Janice”  and “Toxic Retribution”.

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