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MichaelEhart
Sage
      
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 2314
| Posted 12/10/2007 10:49 PM (GMT -4) |   | "Hippies on foot seldom win vs mounted riot police"
True, but Sweet Mother of Pearl, which decade are you living in? When, besides in the fevered imagination of Rush Limbaugh, was the last time a group of any size that could be safely labeled Hippies chanting "Hell, no I won't go!" and "Clean for Gene!" clashed with riot police? :)
Six to one, even on foot, is pretty steep. Six mounted, especially post-stirrup? Your boy is in serious trouble.
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darkbow
Rabbit lord
Date Joined Oct 2005
Total Posts : 1575
| Posted 12/11/2007 12:05 AM (GMT -4) | | | | |
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nathan
Sage
Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 2111
| Posted 12/11/2007 12:15 AM (GMT -4) | | This is a gruesome bit 'o trivia.
The calvary saber in Napoleanonic-ish conflicts was curved--as you all know. Apperantly as musket lines and canon got better mounted calvary charges became less effective. But once infantry broke and ran the horsemen would be unleashed.
However since the backpacks were so high and heavy riding them down was hard so a technique was perfected.
The tennis backhand.
Ride the man down, pass him and catch him in the face (to avoid leather coat & collar) with a backswing.
I would think a nimble guy with a "reach" weapon and no qualms about doging the rider and hurting the horse might surprise people as a rearing horse or a charging horse is very scary but not turning left and right that agily.
Past that? Ride the man down must have entered the lexicon for some reason...
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MichaelEhart
Sage
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 2314
| Posted 12/11/2007 1:11 AM (GMT -4) | | I love this forum.
Just saying.
Buy my book!
The Servant of the Manthycore available Nov. 17th from DEP
Illustrated by Rachel Marks, with an introduction by Michael Moorcock
Read me in 2007!
"The View From the Shotglass Floor" Ray Gun Revival, Feb 2007
"Voice of the Spoiler" The Sword Review, June 2007
"Servant of the Manthycore" The Sword Review, July 2007
"Darkling I Listen; and for Many a Time" Fear and Trembling, coming soon!
"Weaving Spiders Come Not Here" The Sword Review, August 2007
"Six Zombies Doing That Mick Jagger Strut" Damned in Dixie, Summer 2007
"Nothing But Our Tears" The Sword Review, September 2007
"Night of Shadows, Night of Knives" Magic and Mechanica, Fall 2007
"The Scarlet Colored Beast" The Sword Review, October 2007
"The Stars by Law, Forbidden" Unparalleled Journeys II, November 2007
"Who Comes for the Mother's Fruit" Every Day Fiction, November 2007
"Stand, Stand, Shall They Cry" Flashing Swords, November 2007
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Rob Mancebo
Adept
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 889
| Posted 12/11/2007 1:24 AM (GMT -4) | |
Keralen said...
In a fight, how much of an advantage does a swordsman on a horse have over one on foot? Given six or so mounted bad guys, is my protag dead meat? The scene is a level valley with a small river, say 2 to 4 feet deep and full of loose rocks, and fairly dense woods close by to duck into. Medieval longswords, no armor. What strategies would you recommend other than "run like hell"?
- Like the guys are saying, much will depend upon the details.
- Remember though, the greatest and most feared of all warriors since somewhere around BC 300 or earlier have been mounted warriors. Up until WWII horse cavalry was still devistating. [The last great US Cavalry battle was the Philippine Scouts (I believe the 42nd US Cavalry ) VS the Imperial Japanese army. They raised havoc with the invading Japanese and fought a rearguard action against overwhelming odds that allowed the American army to retreat, although it later surrendered. ]
- Weapons make a great difference. Give your infantry long spears and they have a chance to hold off a sword charge. However, if the cavalry has spears, it can simply sashay around the infantry's defensive line and hit them from the sides or rear. Only superbly trained infantry can withstand a charge of cavalry with lances.
- Six riders against a man on foot? Do they like to play?  To ride around him sticking swords into him from both front & rear? Of course if they're 'men on horses' he can poke their horses and make them shy. However if they're knights with fighting horses--which cost as much as armor--any poking he does with a sword is going to get him an enraged 1,200 pound animal with iron-shod hooves trying to kick his brains out! Horses naturally run from fighting, but when they're trained, they're as dangerous as their armored riders. I knew a horse trainer who was kicked in the thigh and was almost crippled --and that was by a 'saddle pony'.
- There are always ways to write your hero out of such a situation, but not by having him face horsemen in the open. He'd just be the target of an entertaining game for them.
Rob (Formerly of the 2nd Armored Cavalry)
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Rob Mancebo
Adept
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 889
| Posted 12/11/2007 1:30 AM (GMT -4) | |
nathan said...
This is a gruesome bit 'o trivia.
The calvary saber in Napoleanonic-ish conflicts was curved--as you all know. Apperantly as musket lines and canon got better mounted calvary charges became less effective. But once infantry broke and ran the horsemen would be unleashed.
However since the backpacks were so high and heavy riding them down was hard so a technique was perfected.
The tennis backhand.
Ride the man down, pass him and catch him in the face (to avoid leather coat & collar) with a backswing.
- Yes and a Blucher saber has a sharpened reverse-edge to cut well in both directions. If you don't cut one way you just slash with a back-hand to catch them as you pass . . . The French really hated that!
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Keralen
Adept
Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 509
| Posted 12/11/2007 10:28 AM (GMT -4) | |
MichaelEhart said...I love this forum. Just saying.
CW, they're undisciplined but bloodthirsty bandits who have just massacred an innocent family. They have only swords. Oh, one had a hunting spear but it's still stuck in his victim. The protag has longsword and dagger and 10 years' fighting experience.
I was trying to figure out a good time for him to arrive on the scene. Looks like maybe *after* would be good.
Thanks, people! Knew I could depend on you.
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Rob Mancebo
Adept
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 889
| Posted 12/11/2007 10:55 AM (GMT -4) | |
crystalwizard said...
Rob Mancebo said...
Horses naturally run from fighting, but when they're trained, they're as dangerous as their armored riders. more dangerous, because they are an animal and while a man might back off because of some moral sense, a maddened horse is going for the kill. And no one but an idiot rides an untrained horse into battle. Okay, so... the guys on the horses... are they warriors or bandits or a bunch of farmers on plow horses? - I'll have to dissagree. The whole 'more dangerous' thing is a modern concept. Now-a-days a police horse or dog is more dangerous than it's handler--and more effective because of it. However, 'back in the day', there was nothing nastier or less controllable than a soldier. This is why warrior bands and mercenary armies were generally replaced by somewhat more controllable national armies around the 1700s. They were still violent, pillaging maniacs, but they were a little more under control (Although still kept under their officer's control with the threat of the lash and the hangman's noose.)
- As for riding an un-trained horse into battle, as I said, a trained warhorse cost as much as a suit of armor. If your horse was killed, you might have to take pot-luck. Not a good thing, but it might be needed in the face of coming battle.
- Also, a new force was created around the mid 1500's-- Dragoons. These are 'Mounted Infantry'. Although they might be called to charge into battle while mounted--like the cavalry--they generally fought on foot and with arquibus' rather than lance. This made them a great power in both the offence and defence. It also made them cheap. No expensive full-body armor and no expensive war horse. Without the added 70+ pounds of plate, they could just use any confiscated plow horse as a mount. They were also not nobles. Without all that outlay for horse, armor, and a lifetime of training, commoners could become mounted warriors.
- No lances for most Dragoons. Opposing cavalry was dispatched with carbine or pistol and charges were made with longsword(later with saber). (You will see exceptions to this throughout the centuries as the line between Cavalry and Dragoon is flexable.)
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Rob Mancebo
Adept
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 889
| Posted 12/11/2007 11:02 AM (GMT -4) | |
Keralen said...
CW, they're undisciplined but bloodthirsty bandits who have just massacred an innocent family. They have only swords. Oh, one had a hunting spear but it's still stuck in his victim. The protag has longsword and dagger and 10 years' fighting experience.
I was trying to figure out a good time for him to arrive on the scene. Looks like maybe *after* would be good.
Thanks, people! Knew I could depend on you.
- If there's a dwelling, the hero can arrive after and use the building(s) and construction to negate the speed advantage of horses.
- If it's a camp, the hero might use the fire to start a grass fire to drive them off.
- Or, if he surprises them, he could unhorse one and fight them from the saddle. Most bandit's are there for the money. If he kills a couple they probably won't wait around to see how many more it will cost them to kill him.
- Whatever he does, he has to keep them from racing around and hitting him from multiple sides.
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erazmus
Master
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4474
| Posted 12/11/2007 1:40 PM (GMT -4) | | Be of good cheer, all is not lost.
Bandits without armor, armed with swords and on horseback does not bespeak of Calvary. Even if they are experienced horse soldiers taken to banditry, that does not imply trained steeds. While bandits would tend to be very skilled and experienced in ambush tactics, the terrain you mention works against them a little.
If your hero intends to fight and kill them, he better make peace with his maker. If they are skilled horsemen, with decent mounts and used to working together, he is pretty much toast. However, you are the author, and you controll most of those factors.
If your hero just wants to live to fight another day, escape and evasion is in order. If he must fight, he first must rearm himself with a better weapon than a sword. Better for this situation at least. I'd reccomend an improvised staff, around eight feet long and about two inches thick. A ponty end, turning it into an improvised spear, is even better. But before he goes cutting on a near-by tree, he better get where they can't ride him down.
A handy stand of birch, aspen or like trees, thin and straight, growing close together, is the most likely shelter. Such a thicket on a hill side even better. Not only are they impossible to ride through, they are difficult to see through, even in winter. Get inside one, and then wack down a sapling to make your weapon.
Most likely, with six men after one, most of the bandits will dismount and persue, eliminating the problems of fighting men and horses together. Four or more opponents in a thicket is marginally better than six on horseback in the open. Or, once they are approaching the thicket, he can exit on the uphill side and try to evade.
If he had a longbow, this would be a different story. If they had one, this would be flash fiction.
Mike
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crystalwizard
Forum Moderator
Date Joined Nov 2006
Total Posts : 4588
| Posted 12/11/2007 1:58 PM (GMT -4) | | | | |
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erazmus
Master
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4474
| Posted 12/11/2007 2:03 PM (GMT -4) | | | | |
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RHFay
Sage
Date Joined Nov 2007
Total Posts : 1550
| Posted 12/11/2007 2:50 PM (GMT -4) | | |
If the woods are close enough that the hero can make it to the woods before he gets cut down by the horsemen, then I would say "head for the woods" would be his best bet.
Even the "make a spear" isn't going to work too well if he's being actively persued. Would these nasty rogues sit back and wait while he fashioned a spear to even the odds? It just might occur in a chivalric situation, knight versus knight, if honour came into play, but I think bandits would just ambush him while he was fashioning his spear.
If the hero has any sort of woodcraft, he may be able to avoid the bandits until the odds a bit more even.
I wouldn't put my chances on being able to use the stream. If a man can wade into it, I would bet a horse can, too. And again, would the bandits give him a chance to search for a sinkhole or white water? Even if he discovered one by chance, would he make it there in time?
There are plenty of medieval examples of fights occurring actually at or even in fords in rivers. There was a cavalry skirmish in the Blanchetaque ford in the Somme River prior to the battle of Crecy in 1346.
Maybe pulling one bandit off his horse would work for your hero, if he could avoid getting killed first, but only if the bandits are widely separated. If not, the others could swarm in and overwhelm him. Five to one is still pretty bad odds, even for a trained warrior. And the bandits are unlikely to fight fair.
I would definitely opt for the woods.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did. I'm going to recite poetry!" Andrew of Armar.
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