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anna
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   Posted 10/16/2007 9:11 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
How many of you hold memberships in organizations that require a certain level of success to join ? For instance, HWA and other similar groups ?

Is it worth the cost of membership fees to be able to list that in your cover letter?

If you meet the qualifications but choose not to join, would you share why ?
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nathan
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   Posted 10/16/2007 12:20 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

I was a member of HWA for a year. Or an associate--whatever a tier two member is. About the time I could move into the ranks of whatever tier one was called (where you can vote on the Stoker Award and such things) I let my membership laps.

Like anything else involving, oh, people--there's good and bad. I'll share my views but keep in mind they're at least 2 years old by now. My impression is that the institutional character wasn't that nimble so my observations (if we share any character traits) prob still hold true to whatever degree.

I learned a lot. A lot. I learned what to really expect from, say, a papberback original deal. I was much more ear-to-the-ground on the industry when I was a member. I began to get realistic expectations about writing, about rejection, about name editors, and about the business. You can get this info if you don't already have it at other places, but it'll be tied up in a bow for you there and this is valuable.

That's about it.

It is a place in divide between those that want to be an advocacy group for established and successful writers and those that want to be a nuturing org for newbies. As a newbie I was like "yeah nuture me" but the truth was I could clearly see how the needs of mid-to-upper-list authors were dramatically different. I also saw how dumb asses with an ebook would talk to authors getting advances in the 10's of thousands as if they were all equals: offering opininons on career moves and contracts and what "literature" was. That's part of the reason the Giants no longer walk those boards. There are no Dean Koontzs or Stephen Kings like in the bad old days. It also causes some heated debate.

There are Ellen Datlows and Doug Winters and Bob Greenburgs and some very experience, canny, cagey, professionals. These are also the ones knee deep in the concept of "don't sell for less than 5-cents aword or you're ****ing us all."

There is a hierarchy. There's also access to people who can help you decipher a contract and THATs very cool. But no agents cruise those boards looking for talent. No one on the Ave of Americas is particularly wowed by membership in that org. A single 3-cent sale to a pub with an iota of name recognition means more. But the lowest advance given to a mmpb prob means more than a string of sales to "high" profile short places when it comes to getting an agent or negotiating another b-deal.

There are some caustic personalities on the chat boards. Ironically they are often some of the most astute pros about the busisness side of it--so there you go. The "e-publishing is the next wave" crowd bickers with "it aint shit if it aint on paper" crowd. The commercial hacks making good money draw the ire of much acclaimed but underpaid literary artists.

In my heart of hearts I would say that [with one single caveat] membership in the SFWA is better. It has all the same problems. It does have more name recognition authors chatting up the board. It does have a better rep in general as an org. The caveat to this being if you are a HORROR writer/lover/fan/afficenado. If, ya, you write horror but you want to write other spec fic as well then go SFWA. If you are all horror or its incesteous subgeneres all the time then HWA becomes a much cooler place.

For the price of a year's membership in either one I guarentee in so much as I can, that you will get your money back in business knowledge. You may make some friends, you may love it. I doubt it'll make you a better writer. But it will sharpen those skills-other-than-writing that are neccessary for success.
 
IMO scool



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"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
 
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages."

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Jeff Stehman
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   Posted 10/16/2007 3:28 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
nathan said...
In my heart of hearts I would say that [with one single caveat] membership in the SFWA is better. It has all the same problems.

Indeed, several long-time big-name members left the SFWA last year due to a (mostly) internal incident, and I believe they lost some more members over the latest copyright whoopsy. If you join either organization, I suspect the odds are good you'll drop into the middle of a political storm no matter when you join. Just go in with your eyes open. Worst case, you blow a year's worth of dues and decide you don't want to renew.


--Jeff Stehman

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nathan
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   Posted 10/16/2007 3:44 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
[quote= "nathan"] I also saw how dumb asses with an ebook

In my own typical fashion of drive by posting I think I might have misphrased that a bit. It wasn't meant to imply "you" [as in anybody] is a dumbass if they have or get or want an ebook contract. I have an ebook.

I meant specifically people who lack the perception to disern when they're speaking beyond the weight of their resume to someone above their professional sucess level: and specifically in that clueless arrogant way.

"Gee Mr. Mid-lister, I just signed my lulu contract and I can tell you I just don't think you should do that media tie-in novel for $15K--what if you get typecast in that ghetto." etc.

My ebook is available thru lulu so I'm not being snide--just painting a picture of how the guy who just got a movie deal on his bestseller might not always post his problems on the forum, etc.


VIEW IMAGE
"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
 
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages."

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David de Beer
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   Posted 10/17/2007 4:30 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Is it worth the cost of membership fees to be able to list that in your cover letter?
 
don't make that your driving reason for wanting to join. There are writers building successful careers, and very well respected, who are not members of the HWA or SFWA - Cory Doctorow and Jeff Vandermeer, being two.
 
credentials are a dicey thing. Many editors in short fiction (including the top paying markets) hardly read them, or only glance at them when they're bored or otherwise. Some do, some don't. It's probably not going to make a difference to your sale. Them knowing your name might, credentials on your cover letter - whether sales, org member or Clarion graduate - there are probably markets where this carries weight but not as a general rule from what I've found.
 
The same with pitching novels to agents or publishers.
Some few might be overly impressed, most probably not.
 
As to the worth of joining - this is something that's currently debated a lot on various blogs, with a very mixed response. Some fanatical supporters (both existing and non-members), some lukewarm, some severely anti, and a lot of people not happy but determined to try and fix it from within.
 
Can either organization provide you with anything that you cannot get anywhere else?
 
nnnot really.
The same info is everywhere. They can give it to you faster, more organized. Help sort problems and stuff quicker, but are just prone to spreading dangerous assumptions and false facts. The organizations are driven by people.
HWA & SFWA are probably better and faster than trying to learn and do everything on your own; but still slower and less valuable than making contact with and getting help from a few veterans.
And there are pros who are very helpful to everyone. They blog, in public, they do frequent some message boards, and when needed respond to email questions.
 
I've heard the HWA is more sane than the current SFWA, which is scary.
 
Bottom line - it's not needed, it's not a necessity. But as for everything else, individual experience differs, and you may need to make this decision on your own.


www.livejournal.com/users/david-de-beer
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crystalwizard
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   Posted 10/18/2007 5:52 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
anna said...
How many of you hold memberships in organizations that require a certain level of success to join ? For instance, HWA and other similar groups ?


I don't and I have no intention of doing so.

anna said...

Is it worth the cost of membership fees to be able to list that in your cover letter?

If you meet the qualifications but choose not to join, would you share why ?


not to me, it's not. I see it as no more than a way for people to pat themselves on the back and strut around with their noses in the air showing all the people that don't qualify how much better they are. While not everyone in those groups act like that, there are plenty that do and I have no desire to be associated with them.
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darkbow
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   Posted 10/18/2007 5:57 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I see way too much arguing over nonsense, especially in SFWA, to consider a membership anytime soon. These organizations would have to change quite a bit before I'd consider joining.

As is, I much prefer finding contacts and info in these forums. :-)


www.tyjohnston.blogspot.com

"Hot Off the Press" now available in Ray Gun Revival #25.

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erazmus
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   Posted 10/24/2007 11:45 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I have an awful lot of fiends in the SFWA. Some are very, very active, most less so. The organisation addresses a lot of issues that are important to writers as a whole, but not always the way I or anyone else expects them to.

Years ago they also were a great clearinghouse for writing markets but that has largely (if not entirely) been overtaken by such web-sites as Ralan's and Duotroupe. As short fiction has become less and less relevant to working professional writers the benifits of joining genre writers orgs have diminished, if your work is geared toward short fiction. If novels are something you plan to do, an org can give a you a leg up, especially on the buiz side of things.

The only way to reliably impress an editor is to submit a whopping great story, but a membership logo on your cover letter might get you bumped past the first reader at a few middle teir pubs. At the top level, a Hugo or Nebula doesn't always achieve that. By and large the whopping great story method is more reliable.

Mike


Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Dutchman Rescue"in Continuum SF #6
www.continuumsciencefiction.com/orders.htm

"An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern" in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises:

www.fantasistent.com/books/anthologies/BASH.php
"Stains" in Tales of the Talisman 3-1 www.zianet.com/hadrosaur/index.html
"Slushpiles" in Between the Kisses
www.samsdotpublishing.com/betweenkisses/TurnerSlushPileS.htm

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Dave Panchyk
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   Posted 10/24/2007 2:26 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
erazmus said...
I have an awful lot of fiends in the SFWA.
That says it all right there... rofl


 

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RHFay
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   Posted 11/3/2007 10:46 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

I might think about joining the Science Fiction Poetry Association, but that doesn't have the publication requirements of some of these other organizations.

I am finding some of the replies here in regards to these other organizations enlightening.  I'm not much into politics of any sort, so joining one of these organizations may not be the best thing for me.  (Not that I even meet the publication requirements yet.  I hope that will change in the not-too-distant future.)


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cussedness
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   Posted 11/6/2007 12:04 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
There are good and bad things. I was an active member of SFWA from 1980 to this year when I finally dropped out of it.

As I have not had anything in a major print publication in ten years, I felt that it did not have much to offer me. If i were to start selling again to major print, then I would probably rejoin. I quit after the latest whoopsy.

Since these days I'm relegated to the ranks of ebooks, I can't see shelling out money for memberships.

I think that the complaints that Nathan mentioned between the print and ebook folks over at HWA are a bit much to take. I was an active at HWA off and on since 03. Ebooks have their own organization.


Janrae Frank
I have no skeletons in my closet, they are all hanging from the yardarm.

Once there were three brothers, Brandrahoon the vampire, Isranon called the Dawnhand, speaker to spirits, and Waejonan the Accursed, first of sa’necari. Isranon defied his brothers and was destroyed, his descendants forced into the darkness.

Blood Rites
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www.janraefrank.com/Vanilla.1.0.1/

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Charles Gramlich
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   Posted 11/14/2007 10:32 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I've been an active member of HWA for a few years now. I find the information helpful, and recently I got sent a free book by the organization. That was cool. I find it worthwhile for the contacts. I was doing some articles on various horror writers for a reference book and being a member of HWA helped me when I went to make contact with other members.

Like any other "human" activity, there are various groups and subgroups and there is politics. I just stay as clear of that as possible.


Charles Gramlich
 

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