SFReader.com : Science Fiction, Fantasy, and Horror Book Reviews & more      SFWatcher.com : Science Fiction, Fantasy, and Horror Movie Review



  Home | Log In | Register | Calendar | Search | Help
   
SFReader Forums > SFReader > Ask The Expert > Daniel Blackston, Help! I'm drowning!  Forum Quick Jump
 
New Topic Post Reply Printable Version
46 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page :
 1  2 
[ << Previous Thread | Next Thread >> | Show Newest Post First ]

Hermit
Diavhrati Luminary



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 1785
 
   Posted 7/20/2007 9:26 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
freaked  and by 'help' I specifically do not mean to push me under and help me drown . . . ;-)
We need another poet with credentials to answer on the matter of sonnets down in the Markets aisle, and there is no other in the region whose opinion I more respect (actually, none I personally know).
 
Philistines! To arms! To arms!
 
Basic question: what does a poem require to qualify as a sonnet?


Exile of my own dull vice. . .

Back to Top
 

PaulMc
Adept



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined May 2005
Total Posts : 992
 
   Posted 7/20/2007 9:39 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Bitter Hermit said...
VIEW IMAGE and by 'help' I specifically do not mean to push me under and help me drown . . . VIEW IMAGE
We need another poet with credentials to answer on the matter of sonnets down in the Markets aisle, and there is no other in the region whose opinion I more respect (actually, none I personally know).

Philistines! To arms! To arms!


Basic question: what does a poem require to qualify as a sonnet?


I seem to recall from school days that sonnets are 14 lines with a rhyme scheme (a b a b a b | a b a b a b | c c) - or variations on such.)

More here; en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonnet


-- Paul McNamee

My Writings
The Tales of Doran Coyle

Back to Top
 

Hermit
Diavhrati Luminary



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 1785
 
   Posted 7/20/2007 9:52 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Thanks Paul.

As usual, it holds just enough to make folks dangerous. It is quite incomplete and fails to mention modern sonnet theory. Not so much that it is inaccurate, but it is dated and incomplete. The sonnet has evolved from a quadaped to a biped with occasional quad tendencies. Which is to say that it need not have all the criteria formerly, and formally, decried and still bullishly, and wrongly, upheld in modern glossings of the sonnet.


Exile of my own dull vice. . .

Back to Top
 

PaulMc
Adept



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined May 2005
Total Posts : 992
 
   Posted 7/20/2007 10:01 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Bitter Hermit said...
Thanks Paul.

As usual, it holds just enough to make folks dangerous. It is quite incomplete and fails to mention modern sonnet theory. Not so much that it is inaccurate, but it is dated and incomplete. The sonnet has evolved from a quadaped to a biped with occasional quad tendencies. Which is to say that it need not have all the criteria formerly, and formally, decried and still bullishly, and wrongly, upheld in modern glossings of the sonnet.


Fair enough. I'm not versed on what makes a 'modern' sonnet.

I'm certainly of the Robert Frost school "I like to be free within my harness." But that's just me cool


-- Paul McNamee

My Writings
The Tales of Doran Coyle

Back to Top
 

Hermit
Diavhrati Luminary



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 1785
 
   Posted 7/20/2007 10:08 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

I am totally cool with that. I love poetry. I love the sonnet. I love form and chaos. I love freedom as well as the strange, compulsive servitude I have to pseudoformalism in a pluralist sort of way.

Viva le Liberty! and vers libre

I do, sincerely, appreciate your opinion and your willingness to pipe in, Paul. Thank you. Despite the way it might be perceived, I'm arguing for the sake of my own learning more than trying to convince anyone else.


Exile of my own dull vice. . .

Back to Top
 

von Darkmoor
Small Press Publisher (and Dancer still)



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Dec 2005
Total Posts : 3120
 
   Posted 7/20/2007 11:02 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Bitter Hermit said...
VIEW IMAGE and by 'help' I specifically do not mean to push me under and help me drown . . . VIEW IMAGE although . . . . turn

We need another poet with credentials to answer on the matter of sonnets down in the Markets aisle,
Basic question: what does a poem require to qualify as a sonnet?


I, too, have been eagerly awaiting Daniel's comments. Not for your reasons, though, dear David. I'm not looking for him to side with either one of us (well, at least not YOU) - I just want to learn his thoughts.

I do believe there is a common ground betwixt us and that we speak not of too distant poles of contention but rather from opposing sides of the same orb. Perhaps Daniel's illumination will strike both of us as profoundly apt.


~~~~~~~~~~
Jason M. Waltz
Fantasy Acquisitions Editor Staffs & Starships Magazine
~~~~~~~~~~
Ever waltz with the Devil? Or devil with a Waltz? Visit von Darkmoor's thoughts to find out (and read a review or two).

Back to Top
 

Daniel
Carl Jung's Waterboy



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Aug 2003
Total Posts : 4515
 
   Posted 7/20/2007 12:23 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Yipes!!! I'm finally asked for my opinion on something -- poetry no less! -- and I'm afraid I have no definitive answer to offer here.

In fact, if someone were to ask me (other than Bitter Hermit) for advice regarding sonnets, I would likely send them to Bitter Hermit for his take on the matter. He has much knowledge and formal scholarship on this matter.

Personally, I think we'd need to narrow down the question a bit; I mean a Petrarchan sonnet doens't have many similarities with a Shakespearean sonnet, just forex. And likewise, the handling of a Shakespearean sonnet by Shakespeare and, say, E.E. Cummings are extraordinarily diverse. Most people probably do not even realize that many of Cummings' famous poems are in sonnet form.

Then there's Donne. Or Wylie. Or May Swenson, all of whom wrote excellent sonnets IMHO, but all of whom also have individual takes on the form. The basic elements of an English sonnet are 14 lines, iambic pentameter, a/b/a/b rhyme scheme with a closing couplet, approached (often) in quatrains, with a volta in the closing verse and couplet and a few variants (dactylls, spondees, etc) of the pentameter line used sparingly for expressive impact. You do too much (or not enough) variation in meter and your sonnet will become parody! Whether you want it to or not!

Without a doubt, Shakespeare is the most agile sonneteer I know of -- his cycle of sonnets is unsurpassed in English literature and I do think that nearly every poet who has tried to follow in Shakespeare's footsteps directly has failed -- or just barely fallen short.

There are subteties in the sonnet form that I never hear anyone speaking about. 1) In a Shakespearean sonnet the lines tend to alternate: purgation/illumination which, in turn, works with the "in" and "out" breath of the reader, which is extremely powerful and cool and hard to "copy." 2) Another big deal in sonnets is the "Volta" the turn which occurs between the closing stanza and the closing couplet.

I seldom see poets competently handle the volta. For that matter most good sonnets *accelerate* as well. Shakespeare was a genius at this!!! The imagery of a sonnet is as important as the rhyme scheme and meter (as in haiku) and this has a lot to do with why so many sonnets fall flat, I think.

Here's an example from Shakespeare:

SONNET 73

That time of year thou mayst in me behold
When yellow leaves, or none, or few, do hang
Upon those boughs which shake against the cold,
Bare ruin'd choirs, where late the sweet birds sang.
In me thou seest the twilight of such day
As after sunset fadeth in the west,
Which by and by black night doth take away,
Death's second self, that seals up all in rest.
In me thou see'st the glowing of such fire
That on the ashes of his youth doth lie,
As the death-bed whereon it must expire
Consumed with that which it was nourish'd by.
This thou perceivest, which makes thy love more strong,
To love that well which thou must leave ere long.


OK, the brilliant thing happening here beyond the diction and prosody is the acceleration of the imagery: first leafless trees ("bare ruined choirs"), then the setting sun, and finally the dying embers of a fire, all of which evoke the "mortal angst" of the sonnet's theme. The brilliance is in the progression of images which become more urgent and visceral as the poem progresses: the glowing fire embers lastly are so immediate and urgent and universally understood. The progression of images, no less than the innovativeness of lanuage, is what makes this poem superb.

The "volta" in this sonnet is a "delayed" volta in that it really doesn't take place until the closing couplet. Still, it is the "movement" of the poem which saves it from dullness and flatness and forgetability.

So, there's some thoughts on sonnets, which are as comprehensive as they are eloquent!  turn The subject is quite vast!

If you are looking to define sonnets or poetry itself, I'm happy to join in the discussion but I am pretty sure any rules we research or offer of our own intellectual and creative resources will ultimately yield to numerous exceptions!


"Art is the celebration of the ego's destruction."

Daniel

Back to Top
 

von Darkmoor
Small Press Publisher (and Dancer still)



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Dec 2005
Total Posts : 3120
 
   Posted 7/20/2007 12:32 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Daniel said...

If you are looking to define sonnets or poetry itself, I'm happy to join in the discussion but I am pretty sure any rules we research or offer of our own intellectual and creative resources will ultimately yield to numerous exceptions!


Universally understandable and amazingly acceptable to me!

Thanks for the eloquent response, Daniel.


~~~~~~~~~~
Jason M. Waltz
Fantasy Acquisitions Editor Staffs & Starships Magazine
~~~~~~~~~~
Ever waltz with the Devil? Or devil with a Waltz? Visit von Darkmoor's thoughts to find out (and read a review or two).

Back to Top
 

Hermit
Diavhrati Luminary



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 1785
 
   Posted 7/20/2007 12:52 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Bravo! jumpin

Blessed fine articulation, Daniel. Very impressive and concise explication as well.


Exile of my own dull vice. . .

Back to Top
 

Daniel
Carl Jung's Waterboy



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Aug 2003
Total Posts : 4515
 
   Posted 7/20/2007 1:05 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks, Dave.

Now, about modern sonnets? Care to discourse a bit? I am ignorant of such modern theories and I am sincerely interested in your thoughts.

If you care to share any of your thoughts on sonnets, especially modern variants, I am all-ears!!!!


"Art is the celebration of the ego's destruction."

Daniel

Back to Top
 

Daniel
Carl Jung's Waterboy



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Aug 2003
Total Posts : 4515
 
   Posted 7/20/2007 1:06 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Universally understandable and amazingly acceptable to me!

Thanks for the eloquent response, Daniel

***

My pleasure, Jason. And thanks for your kudos.

I've been following the "what makes poetry" thread a bit, and I just have not summoned up any kind of decent response. It is a very tricky question. Right along with "Can Poetry Matter?"

LOL


"Art is the celebration of the ego's destruction."

Daniel

Back to Top
 

Swashbuckler
One-man sword-and-sorcery machine



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 1286
 
   Posted 7/20/2007 1:57 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Daniel: Very good to see you engaging in this conversation!

And, hey, does the amount of interest here indicate there should be a "Poetry" category on the boards here?


Steve Goble

Visit my blog, Swords Against Boredom, for news on published fiction and upcoming stories.

Back to Top
 

Hermit
Diavhrati Luminary



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 1785
 
   Posted 7/20/2007 2:03 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
GODS! but I hope not.
Swashbuckler said...
Daniel: Very good to see you engaging in this conversation!

And, hey, does the amount of interest here indicate there should be a "Poetry" category on the boards here?


Exile of my own dull vice. . .

Back to Top
 

Hermit
Diavhrati Luminary



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 1785
 
   Posted 7/20/2007 2:06 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Yeah. Let me clack for about an hour here. I'll post a manifesto soon.
Daniel said...
Thanks, Dave.

Now, about modern sonnets? Care to discourse a bit? I am ignorant of such modern theories and I am sincerely interested in your thoughts.

If you care to share any of your thoughts on sonnets, especially modern variants, I am all-ears!!!!


Exile of my own dull vice. . .

Back to Top
 

Daniel
Carl Jung's Waterboy



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Aug 2003
Total Posts : 4515
 
   Posted 7/20/2007 2:15 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
And, hey, does the amount of interest here indicate there should be a "Poetry" category on the boards here?

***

Yes!!!


"Art is the celebration of the ego's destruction."

Daniel

Back to Top
 

Daniel
Carl Jung's Waterboy



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Aug 2003
Total Posts : 4515
 
   Posted 7/20/2007 2:15 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Yeah. Let me clack for about an hour here. I'll post a manifesto soon.

***

Cool.


"Art is the celebration of the ego's destruction."

Daniel

Back to Top
 

Camille Alexa
fictionista



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Jun 2007
Total Posts : 629
 
   Posted 7/20/2007 2:25 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Daniel said...
[Swashbuckler:] And, hey, does the amount of interest here indicate there should be a "Poetry" category on the boards here?

***

Yes!!!

I'll second (third?) the motion.
Back to Top
 

von Darkmoor
Small Press Publisher (and Dancer still)



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Dec 2005
Total Posts : 3120
 
   Posted 7/20/2007 2:25 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Bitter Hermit said...
GODS! but I hope not.


Swashbuckler said...

Daniel: Very good to see you engaging in this conversation!

And, hey, does the amount of interest here indicate there should be a "Poetry" category on the boards here?




rofl smilewinkgrin


~~~~~~~~~~
Jason M. Waltz
Fantasy Acquisitions Editor Staffs & Starships Magazine
~~~~~~~~~~
Ever waltz with the Devil? Or devil with a Waltz? Visit von Darkmoor's thoughts to find out (and read a review or two).

Back to Top
 

Swashbuckler
One-man sword-and-sorcery machine



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 1286
 
   Posted 7/20/2007 3:10 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
By the way, I meant a forum to discuss poetry, not necessarily a place for people to inflict their poetry on one another ...


Steve Goble

Visit my blog, Swords Against Boredom, for news on published fiction and upcoming stories.

Back to Top
 

Daniel
Carl Jung's Waterboy



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Aug 2003
Total Posts : 4515
 
   Posted 7/20/2007 3:12 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Yes, indeed!

Someone else can start this forum though; I've got enough threads going.


"Art is the celebration of the ego's destruction."

Daniel

Back to Top
 

Hermit
Diavhrati Luminary



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 1785
 
   Posted 7/20/2007 4:49 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
AAAAHHHHH. If I'm going to do this, I may as well do it right. Give me the weekend. I found some great articles and a book I must read - another Penguin.
Daniel said...
Yeah. Let me clack for about an hour here. I'll post a manifesto soon.

***

Cool.


Exile of my own dull vice. . .

Back to Top
 

Daniel
Carl Jung's Waterboy



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Aug 2003
Total Posts : 4515
 
   Posted 7/20/2007 4:51 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The weekend!?

That's not clacking, that's effort. :-0

I look forward to reading your post!


"Art is the celebration of the ego's destruction."

Daniel

Back to Top
 

crystalwizard
Forum Moderator



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Nov 2006
Total Posts : 5196
 
   Posted 7/21/2007 10:39 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Daniel said...
And, hey, does the amount of interest here indicate there should be a "Poetry" category on the boards here?


I'd like to see that too. Who wants to talk Dave into it?
Back to Top
 

erazmus
Master



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4557
 
   Posted 7/22/2007 7:43 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
If we must, we must!
Lets us try to keep _some_ genre focus herein, though. (Says a man who just started writing (and selling) poetry).

Mike


Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Dutchman Rescue"in Continuum SF #6
www.continuumsciencefiction.com/orders.htm

"An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern" in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises:
www.fantasistent.com/books/anthologies/BASH.php
www.fantasistent.com/books/anthologies/BASH.php
"Stains" in Tales of the Talisman 3-1 www.zianet.com/hadrosaur/index.html

Back to Top
 

von Darkmoor
Small Press Publisher (and Dancer still)



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Dec 2005
Total Posts : 3120
 
   Posted 7/22/2007 7:46 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Yes! Only spec fic sonnets allowed - no matter their subcategory!
lol rofl lol


~~~~~~~~~~
Jason M. Waltz
Fantasy Acquisitions Editor Staffs & Starships Magazine
~~~~~~~~~~
Ever waltz with the Devil? Or devil with a Waltz? Visit von Darkmoor's thoughts to find out (and read a review or two).

Back to Top
 
New Topic Post Reply Printable Version
46 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page :
 1  2 
 
Forum Information
Currently it is Thursday, January 08, 2009 7:51 PM (GMT -5)
There are a total of 85,854 posts in 7,125 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 17 new threads and 74 reply posts. View Active Threads
Who's Online
This forum has 1335 registered members. Please welcome our newest member, rowdyphantom.
9 Guest(s), 1 Registered Member(s) are currently online.  Details
crystalwizard