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Daniel
Carl Jung's Waterboy



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   Posted 7/5/2007 2:01 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ha! Touché , Daniel, touché .

***

Ha! Indeed! I posted in that "stupidest crit" thread and it felt nice to get it out! LOL

But any editor risking commentary on *every* rejection is just asking for trouble and rolling those dice too many times!


"Art is the celebration of the ego's destruction."

Daniel

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von Darkmoor
Small Press Publisher (and Dancer still)



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   Posted 7/5/2007 9:40 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Bitter Hermit said...
And, for my money, they ought to be practicing critics as well (maybe even with guts enough to publish criticism under their own names).


Jordan Lapp said...
Ouch. Was that a dig at Jason?


Thanks for jumping on the live grenade, Jordan. My jaw just about struck the desktop when I read that, then I laughed outright, laughed again when I got to Jordan's question, and wiped away the tears at

Bitter Hermit said...
ABSOLUTELY NOT!


This place is a riot. smilewinkgrin


~~~~~~~~~~
Jason M. Waltz
Fantasy Acquisitions Editor Staffs & Starships Magazine
~~~~~~~~~~
Ever waltz with the Devil? Or devil with a Waltz? Visit von Darkmoor's thoughts to find out (and read a review or two).

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Hermit
Diavhrati Luminary



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   Posted 7/6/2007 1:47 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Sorry. Didn't know I was dancing on any toes but my own.
 
On the critic thing:
I think we're talking ducks and geese here, Mr. Chaos Magick. When I say critic, I mean critic. It looks to me like you're talking about reviewers, and I refuse to give most reviewers their critic stripes. Reviewers have their place in the industry as marketing support. Critics are far more, and more likely to show up in academic pubs as opposed to industry pubs. And I believe that's the way it should be. I realize they call themselves critics and they're labeled in major media that way, but those are the same low-brainers who speak of bickering as rhetoric and say "that begs the question" when they mean "it RAISES the question," etc. Not that reviewers can't be critics, but reviews and critical analyses are usually separate species. Great critics can be great editors as often as great editors can be great critics, especially in terms of acquisitions. It is the skills of criticism that give an editor the judiciousness to recognize good work, great work, and great potential. Having said that though, I'd like to point out that many editors would never recognize themselves as having that skillset merely because theirs is unconscious competence to some degree. This makes it seem like it comes from intuition because the details have been relegated to the greater capacity of the subconscious mind. As with so many things, though, folks who think they can't do a thing find ways to seem incompetent at it. And thank the powers that be! Gives some of us a leg up. idea


Exile of my own dull vice. . .

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Daniel
Carl Jung's Waterboy



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   Posted 7/6/2007 1:55 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
On the critic thing:
I think we're talking ducks and geese here, Mr. Chaos Magick

***

But of course! I said it was a different case for lit-fic. Are there critics of short SF, per se? I don't know of any.... Like you mentioned, the critics are mostly academics "reviwers" are mostly for pop-fiction, but damned if many "reviewers" I know of don't seem to understand that latter distinction, or that there is any distinction at all!

BTW, if you want to stick me with an unsolicited "nickname" I'd prefer "Mr. Chaote" to "Mr.Chaos Magick." OK!!  rolleyes

***
Great critics can be great editors as often as great editors can be great critics, especially in terms of acquisitions. It is the skills of criticism that give an editor the judiciousness to recognize good work, great work, and great potential.

***

Absolutely!


"Art is the celebration of the ego's destruction."

Daniel

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Hermit
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   Posted 7/6/2007 3:15 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Daniel said...
On the critic thing:
I think we're talking ducks and geese here, Mr. Chaos Magick

BTW, if you want to stick me with an unsolicited "nickname" I'd prefer "Mr. Chaote" to "Mr.Chaos Magick." OK!!  shocked .
What the heck happened to my post?
Just felt wierd at the time with "Daniel" seeming too formal, "Dan" too informal, and "Mr. Blackston" being reserved for bouts of socially acceptable dueling cry .


Exile of my own dull vice. . .

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Daniel
Carl Jung's Waterboy



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   Posted 7/6/2007 3:23 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I think we're talking ducks and geese
 
***
 
"Deese" are used in the dark and bloody esoteric sacrificial rites of Chaos Magick, whereas "Gucks" are used as demonic familiars.
 
These highly inportant disctinctions are, of course, drawn from "The Menagerie of Magick" by a certain Frater Ertenalus Babalus.
 
LOL
 
   jumpin    jumpin   devil devil hop hop


"Art is the celebration of the ego's destruction."

Daniel

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Hermit
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   Posted 7/6/2007 4:22 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Daniel said...
I think we're talking ducks and geese
 
***
 
"Deese" are used in the dark and bloody esoteric sacrificial rites of Chaos Magick, whereas "Gucks" are used as demonic familiars.
 
These highly inportant disctinctions are, of course, drawn from "The Menagerie of Magick" by a certain Frater Ertenalus Babalus.
 
LOL
 
   jumpin    jumpin   devil devil hop hop

At least we quit using boiled babies! skull - devil So hard to find unbaptized babies in a Puritan country!


Exile of my own dull vice. . .

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Daniel
Carl Jung's Waterboy



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   Posted 7/6/2007 4:24 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
What the heck happened to my post?

***

Dunno.

I thought you were being ironic!!! But when you start talking Chaos Magick anything can happen!

I was just joking, btw, I don't really care if you want to call me Mr. Chaos Magick. LOL

Agree with your thoughts on editors and critics as well! A fine point, indeed and one I have thought about somewhere inthe back of my mind these past few years. You expressed it well.


"Art is the celebration of the ego's destruction."

Daniel

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Daniel
Carl Jung's Waterboy



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   Posted 7/6/2007 4:27 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Mr. Blackston" being reserved for bouts of socially acceptable dueling

***

Wherepon "Mr." Blackston falls to the ground mortally wounded but still shaking his fists in hellish fury! LOL

I'll have my seconds contact your thirds unless, in which case, we'll go directly to our fourths.... thank you, Woody Allen, with due apologies for the scrambled quote!

rofl  


"Art is the celebration of the ego's destruction."

Daniel

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von Darkmoor
Small Press Publisher (and Dancer still)



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   Posted 7/6/2007 10:39 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Speaking of critics . . . . the new Pixar flick Ratatouille ends with a very sage monologue on critics delivered by an ornery bahss-tard of a food critic. A quite appropriate observation that brought a knowing smile to my lips. Decent flick, worth seeing sometime, if for nothing else than this very same 2-minutes or less.

As to the difference between critic and reviewer - I much agree, both on definition and on the fact that I am not the first at all and only the second by default of deed. I misunderstood the use of the appellation at first mention and so of course took it as Jordan did - as a dastardly assault upon my being! If Mr. Daniel Chaote hadn't already claimed seconds, thirds, and fourths against Mr. B. Hermit, I'd have been forced to throw the gauntlet then and there!

As it is, I'm much too busy penning the two of your's infernal article to enter the lists any time soon. No toes have been stepped upon, unless I've done it myself tripping out the door.

EDIT: And yes, any critic of any stripe or caliber should be man enough to stand behind his/her words.


~~~~~~~~~~
Jason M. Waltz
Fantasy Acquisitions Editor Staffs & Starships Magazine
~~~~~~~~~~
Ever waltz with the Devil? Or devil with a Waltz? Visit von Darkmoor's thoughts to find out (and read a review or two).

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Dru
Bemused Bystander



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   Posted 7/7/2007 12:26 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
See, now, here's why I'm notoriously bad about posting to forums. By the time I read through a topic, the thread of conversation has already moved far away...

For what it's worth, I think that an editor ought to say something more about a submission than the old "doesn't suit our needs" standby. I value editorial feedback and there's nothing I'd appreciate more than an editor willing to work with me to improve a promising but not-quite-there piece.

The hardest rejects I've had to write are the ones that say either 1. doesn't suit my tastes -- which is fairly rare, but has happened -- or 2. I've seen this plot too often before, which is much harder for a writer to receive, I think, as it offers less hope of story placement elsewhere. Usually, though, I can provide more substantial feedback. I admit that it would be difficult to take the time to write a few sentences of personal feedback if one received hundreds of subs a day, but most zines and publishing houses don't enjoy that level of activity.

Besides, as a professor in my paying life, the idea of not trying to help a writer with some word of advice or another just feels wrong to me. I wouldn't give a student an F without explaining why!


The Harrow
The Mark of Ashen Wings
~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Clockwork Heart
Coming from Juno Books
February 2008
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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erazmus
Master



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   Posted 7/7/2007 8:41 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I've always held out for "I've seen this plot before, and I didn't buy it then, either."

Mike


Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Dutchman Rescue"in Continuum SF #6
www.continuumsciencefiction.com/orders.htm

"An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern" in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises:
www.fantasistent.com/books/anthologies/BASH.php
www.fantasistent.com/books/anthologies/BASH.php

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Hermit
Diavhrati Luminary



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   Posted 7/13/2007 1:28 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Here's another criteria for you great editors:
A great editor should ask more questions than make definitive statements.
I tend to forget this a great deal - as with the fun we had yesterday with the whole poetry versus flash fiction discussion. Questions elicit answers, statements more often raise objections or bring out defensiveness. Neither objection nor defensiveness is very constructive.
 
I also prefer an editor is a good rhetorician and not overly authoritarian. smilewinkgrin


Exile of my own dull vice. . .

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