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Alan of The Word
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   Posted 6/18/2007 7:42 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
With regard to the word count, don't try to make the count fit a particular publisher. Write a good book that you're happy with, that is the best book you can write. Then, regardless of word count, keep shopping it around until you find a publisher that will publish that length of book.

And ideally, get an agent. Unsolicited manuscripts (of any length) are really hard to place.


Read The Word

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Michael
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   Posted 6/4/2007 10:19 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hmm ... that actually sounds like good advice, Bitter Hermit.  Thanks!


Tower of Light Fantasy http://toweroflightfantasy.myfastforum.org/

TOL Guidelines http://toweroflightfantasy.myfastforum.org/about16.html

Avatar Lore http://avatarlore.blogspot.com/

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Hermit
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   Posted 6/4/2007 7:57 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
It's not a problem so much as a complication. As a writer, your best bet is to include information for the previous publication - if not consent from previous publisher(s) - making it totally clear that you own the copyright and can unequivically grant them permission to reprint the story. Common courtesy, if not law, demands that we publishers credit the original publisher(s) for having the good sense to publish what we deem worthy of publication.
The complication in question is more about legality and litigation than anything. Too often, writers don't realize what rights they've sold or given away - or they are mistaken because of verbal acrobatics in the contracts. This is really the biggest reason we use release forms: to clearly state what rights we are asking and what rights the author retains (now I have to go check our form to either verify or correct this). While there are a few dishonest ones out there, I like to think that most of us small press publishers are just honest schmucks trying to do our part. Which is to say that we're just folks and can sometimes get caught up in all the regular pitfalls such as trying to use fancy legal jargon to (accidentally, I hope) obfuscate the matter at hand.
Ease the publisher's mind about that, and the publisher loses one critical category on which to reject the work. For some of us, it simply is a matter of convenience and peace of mind. We don't have the time or other resources to dick around with copyright claims, so we use it as a default rejection to narrow down the slush. Got nothing to do with the work, per se, or with the author. Has everything to do with efficiency and security.
 
That's the way it is. Deal with it. (As a writer, I feel a compulsory need to apologize; consider this my apology idea )


Exile of my own dull vice. . .

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Michael
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   Posted 6/4/2007 7:03 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'm sorry, but this is really confusing.  I understood that granting "non-exclusive" rights means you retain the right to publish the work again ... period.  That's what all the e-zines that buy these rights say, anyway.
 
On the other hand, I understand that there are some publications that only want new work, which is different.  If they say they accept reprints, then what's the problem?

Oh, and I got the same reply from an agent once, and my actual word count is 98,000 words - just shy of 100k, which would put the estimated count right there.  Go figure.


Tower of Light Fantasy http://toweroflightfantasy.myfastforum.org/

TOL Guidelines http://toweroflightfantasy.myfastforum.org/about16.html

Avatar Lore http://avatarlore.blogspot.com/

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Hermit
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   Posted 6/4/2007 11:53 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thank you, Crystalwizard. I have a (nother) mission now.


Exile of my own dull vice. . .

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crystalwizard
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   Posted 5/26/2007 6:34 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Bitter Hermit said...

I was under the impression that agents avoid newbies.


If they all did that, there'd be very few agents who could pay their bills. There are only so many authors who have established track records AND who don't have an agent they prefer to work with.
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Hermit
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   Posted 5/25/2007 11:39 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
crystalwizard said...
I would suggest you post in the
SFReader Forums > Writing > On Writing

forum.

You have to expect a long wait from most publishers and Oscar, do yourself a favor, get a good literary agent. do NOT send your manuscript out. Get a good, well recomended literary agent, and work with them.

You're new to this so there are a lot of pitfalls you can avoid. You do need to learn patience though, you'll need it.

Read through the boards here. The people here are experienced in this industry. LISTEN to them, they've been where you are headed and have learned a lot of things the hard way.

I was under the impression that agents avoid newbies. But, I tend to have a great many bits of misinformation that melt to mist when held up to the light of reality :-)
. What's the best source, in your opinion of course, for a newbie to find a reputable agent for fantasy fiction? At what point of writing should one find said agent? Is it better to pitch the book or the series to the agent? I feel that I'm a long way from the agent search, but I am curious as to the process.
(Feel free to PM me with an agent reference. Wink, wink. Nudge, nudge.)


Exile of my own dull vice. . .

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scubadoc51
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   Posted 5/19/2007 10:43 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
All I can say is, if I wanted to publish a novel, I wouldn't take a chance on someone thinking it's already been published. I used a private writing group to tweak my first novel. We met on boards like this and formed our own group. We took turns sending work to every member of the group (usually a chapter at a time). The other members would send back their suggested corrections and we would accept/reject it.

This worked for us and no one could say anything was published, it was all done by email.

Tim


Tim Fisher
scubadoc51.com
http://www.fictionwise.com/ebooks/eBook34195.htm
http://www.tejasparanormalresearch.org

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Jim C. Hines
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   Posted 2/15/2007 10:20 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Going back to the original question for a moment, my novels were 95,000 and 93,000 words, respectively. So far, nobody has complained :-)
 
Every publisher's submission guidelines should specify the minimum and maximum word count they'll look at from a new author.

As for posting online and the rights issues, some publishers don't care. Others do. My thinking is, why risk cutting off even some of your potential markets? And deleting something from a public web site isn't the answer, because there are plenty of places where that will still be cached...


In the history of grand adventures and heroic quests, goblinkind has never been more than a footnote. That's about to change....

Goblin Quest -- Available from DAW Books.
Goblin Hero -- Coming in May, 2007.

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Dragon Angel
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   Posted 2/14/2007 2:15 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
TSR will publish reprints, but only if the work is far above normal quality, AND the story is marked as a reprint.

The only contest which really adds to your CV is Writers of the Future. Many authors published there do get picked up by Asimov's/Analog/F&SF/ROF, in my opinion.


read free fiction and poetry at http://www.geocities.com/davidolson22/index.html
 
Part dark, part light. And gooey in the middle.

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Jordan Lapp
Ebony & Ivory



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   Posted 2/13/2007 11:17 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
crystalwizard said...
I don't know of any contests that pay well, but it builds your resume and makes you more attractive to people that do pay well if you go win a few (and it gives you practice)

Alright, then what are some speculative fiction contests that you enter?  I'm a little suspicious of contests that don't pay because there are so many scams out there.  Writer Beware is full of warnings about the,,,
 


Jordan Lapp

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crystalwizard
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   Posted 2/13/2007 11:11 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I don't know of any contests that pay well, but it builds your resume and makes you more attractive to people that do pay well if you go win a few (and it gives you practice)


Never meddle in the affairs of a wizard unless you are soggy and hard to light!

Visit my art gallery on art wanted at
http://artwanted.com/crystalwizard

All my books in print:
http://sojourn.omnitech.net

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Jordan Lapp
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   Posted 2/13/2007 10:24 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
crystalwizard said...

>Markets are getting scarcer and scarcer, and a poor author like myself need all the advantages I can get ;)

Jordan, you might want to consider entering contests then. Some of them pay pretty well and you can add publication credits to your name.
This is a great suggestion, but I'm not sure I'm good enough to win contests yet... maybe, but the only thing I've eeked out so far as a fourth place win in a local newspaper's contest...
 
Do you know of any speculative fiction contests that pay well?  There's WOTF... but what else?


Jordan Lapp

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Jordan Lapp
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   Posted 2/13/2007 10:21 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
crystalwizard said...

It can't and no one does.

And I repeat, Jessie's wrong about 'exclusive electronic rights'. You can't sell right of first electronic publication perhaps, but if you delete it from your port and it's not online any where, then someone else can by the right to have it exclusively on their site/e-zine
She's not wrong.  If you read the article again, you'll see that she refers to "First North American Serial Rights", which you cannot sell if you've posted the story online in any form.  Most publisher ask for these rights.  Some do not.
 
Of course, it is also difficult to sell exclusive rights because of search engine caching and the fact that people sometimes just copy publicly available information wholesale to their site (not legally, but it happens).  If a search Engine has cached your work, it may appear at the same time as the market you sold it to chooses to display it, and hence is not exclusive.
 
There are plenty of sites that offer private critiquing groups.  Critters for once, and Writing.com has a "private" option that allows access to your stories only with a password (which is acceptable to most publishers), so why take chances?
 
Jeff Stehman said...
Jordan Lapp said...
It doesn't matter if you only post a section. If even parts of a book are posted publicly, you're out of luck.

I've never heard anyone take it to that extreme. How can matieral be considered published if it has never been shown to the public?

Jeff.  I haven't heard of this happening either.  I can't imagine anyone sueing over it, but why take chances?
 
Certainly, a publisher might ask you to significantly rework the sections that have been posted... but I doubt it.  Established authors like Charles Stross and Cory Doctorow are posting entire novels to the web using the creative commons license... but they are established authors, so presumably they have that leaway.
 


Jordan Lapp

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crystalwizard
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   Posted 2/13/2007 8:59 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Dragon Angel said...
On being considered published:

The Sword Review has rejected numerous stories/poems because the author didn't think to tell us that it had been published already in a forum somewhere or in their blog. And it is pretty easy to discover such things if you know how to use Google.


SR is only one venue. There are plenty of others out there that don't care and don't consider it pre-published.

It's pretty easy to go visit the ones you're interested in, find the email address for the editor in charge, write a short note and ask if they consider something posted in a public forum like this to be pre-published or not.

I believe SR accepts such as re-submissions, doesn't it?


Never meddle in the affairs of a wizard unless you are soggy and hard to light!

Visit my art gallery on art wanted at
http://artwanted.com/crystalwizard

All my books in print:
http://sojourn.omnitech.net

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Dragon Angel
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   Posted 2/13/2007 2:12 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
On being considered published:

The Sword Review has rejected numerous stories/poems because the author didn't think to tell us that it had been published already in a forum somewhere or in their blog. And it is pretty easy to discover such things if you know how to use Google.


read free fiction and poetry at http://www.geocities.com/davidolson22/index.html
 
Part dark, part light. And gooey in the middle.

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crystalwizard
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   Posted 2/9/2007 11:29 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jeff Stehman said...
Jordan Lapp said...
It doesn't matter if you only post a section. If even parts of a book are posted publicly, you're out of luck.

I've never heard anyone take it to that extreme. How can matieral be considered published if it has never been shown to the public?


It can't and no one does.

And I repeat, Jessie's wrong about 'exclusive electronic rights'. You can't sell right of first electronic publication perhaps, but if you delete it from your port and it's not online any where, then someone else can by the right to have it exclusively on their site/e-zine

>Markets are getting scarcer and scarcer, and a poor author like myself need all the advantages I can get ;)

Jordan, you might want to consider entering contests then. Some of them pay pretty well and you can add publication credits to your name.


Never meddle in the affairs of a wizard unless you are soggy and hard to light!

Visit my art gallery on art wanted at
http://artwanted.com/crystalwizard

All my books in print:
http://sojourn.omnitech.net

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Jeff Stehman
Sage

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   Posted 2/9/2007 11:12 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jordan Lapp said...
It doesn't matter if you only post a section. If even parts of a book are posted publicly, you're out of luck.

I've never heard anyone take it to that extreme. How can matieral be considered published if it has never been shown to the public?


--Jeff Stehman
"The Goblin Hunter," Jim Baen's Universe (Feb 2007)

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crystalwizard
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   Posted 2/9/2007 12:43 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Are you intending to pitch your book or your series?

If you just want to pitch your book, then just talk about it

If you want to pitch the series, you have to discuss the entire thing.


Never meddle in the affairs of a wizard unless you are soggy and hard to light!

Visit my art gallery on art wanted at
http://artwanted.com/crystalwizard

All my books in print:
http://sojourn.omnitech.net

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Oscar E.
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   Posted 2/9/2007 12:40 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks to everybody for your help - my head is spinning, but I added one thousand words to the book today.

The count is actual - IF my software is accurate (I'm using OpenOffice on Linux).

I don't think I'll post parts of the book at this point. I'm more worried about the synopsis so I may post that tomorrow - will that cause problems?

My basic question with the synopsis is what to include. Since this is a multi-volume series, some things happen in the first book that are only there to set up action in a later book. It is an important part of the total story, but it plays a minor role in this book. Do I include it in the synopsis? (as an example, suppose you're writing a medical sci-fi thriller and a character is injected with a deadly virus. It will eventually have serious consequences, but in the first book he just has random dizzy spells that don't last long).

Thanks again.
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Jordan Lapp
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   Posted 2/8/2007 11:17 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'd check with a lawyer on this.... it's just not worth jeopardizing your rights.

As for WDC, Jessie's comment is completely accurate. If you've granted WDC non-exclusive rights, then by definition you cannot sell exclusive rights to anyone else QED. As most places ask for First Serial rights... again, because you have already given away some (albeit non-exclusive) rights, you cannot sell FIRST rights. I've actually seen publishers name-check WDC here.

As for the whole "checking with the publisher"... if even ONE market closes to me because of posting my piece publicly, that's too much. Markets are getting scarcer and scarcer, and a poor author like myself need all the advantages I can get ;)


Jordan Lapp

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crystalwizard
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   Posted 2/8/2007 10:13 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hasn't caused me any problems.

Something you have to remember:

No one's experience is all conclusive. The companies you want to publish with will have clearly stated guidelines and will also be more than willing to answer any questions.

Not everyone who publishes considers work posted in a public forum to be a problem. You need to ask THEM what they do and don't consider to be published.

Also, Jessie's comment about 'you can't sell exclusive electronic rights' by deleteing the item from your port because it infringes on the rights you've already granted WDC is wrong.

From the WDC FAQ:
When you post your work on Writing.Com, you maintain complete rights to your own material. We highly recommend only posting material that you are sure is your own. Using someone else's material as your own can get you in a lot of trouble. Posting email jokes and messages that you know are not your own also falls into this category.

For your convenience, Writing.Com automatically includes a personal Copyright notice at the end of each item you create. You are free, and encouraged, to sell your work to others, publish it with others or do whatever you wish!

By posting to Writing.Com, you grant us non-exclusive rights to display and store your work on our site. Obviously, we require these rights to show your work to other people who may visit our site. Non-exclusive means that you may give these same rights to anyone else as well; for money or for free.


WDC plainly states you grant them NON-EXCLUSIVE rights and ONLY so they can display your work. If you delete it, they no longer have those rights and they no longer make it available.

Same thing goes if you put it online on WDC and mark it private so that only you can view it. Or password protect it so that only a few can view it privately.


Jessie is a blue case (the little blue rectangle near her name). That means she's a prefered author, not a site admin and not one of the site owners. Her piece is not official WDC policy nor is she empowered to speak for any publisher other than perhaps herself.

So while the piece has merit, it's also far too general in scope.


Never meddle in the affairs of a wizard unless you are soggy and hard to light!

Visit my art gallery on art wanted at
http://artwanted.com/crystalwizard

All my books in print:
http://sojourn.omnitech.net

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Jordan Lapp
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   Posted 2/8/2007 9:11 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
It doesn't matter if you only post a section. If even parts of a book are posted publicly, you're out of luck.

There's a rather interesting article on writing.com that is about this very thing. Find it here.

http://www.writing.com/main/view_item/item_id/637481 .

Hope you can all view it.... it's got some alarming info in it.


Jordan Lapp

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crystalwizard
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   Posted 2/8/2007 9:04 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
He's not likely to be posting the entire book in the forum... or at least I hope he's not!


Never meddle in the affairs of a wizard unless you are soggy and hard to light!

Visit my art gallery on art wanted at
http://artwanted.com/crystalwizard

All my books in print:
http://sojourn.omnitech.net

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Jordan Lapp
Ebony & Ivory



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   Posted 2/8/2007 9:01 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
That was weird... my posting disappeared... so here it is again.

If you post anything in a public forum such as " SFReader Forums > Writing > On Writing " it is considered published... which means no traditional publisher will touch it. Obviously this applies even to sample chapters.

I agree with Crystalwizard that you should get it looked over, but do so privately, or the legal eagles will get you.


Jordan Lapp

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