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| SFReader Forums > SFReader > Ask The Expert > Word count for a new fantasy writer? | Forum Quick Jump
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Oscar E.
Stablehand
      
Date Joined Feb 2007
Total Posts : 4
| Posted 2/8/2007 2:47 PM (GMT -5) |   | Hi,
I have recently my first two books in a fantasy series. Both books are roughly 83,000 words, which I believed was the correct length for an unknown author (based on a google search). Now I'm wondering if they need to be longer.
I realize there is no definitive answer, and know the first 'Harry Potter' novel was 76,000 - was that the exception or the rule. I ask because I just received a rejection letter from an agent that said, '...and selling small books by new writers to big publishers is becoming more difficult..."
Is 83K a small book?
Thanks for any advice,
Oscar | | Back to Top | | |
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nathan
Sage
Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 2122
| Posted 2/8/2007 3:40 PM (GMT -5) | | Oscar, tough time to be a writer, man. In the 70's and even into the 80's genre books were getting moved at 45-60k and there were more "big" houses to shop around to.
Now genre books, but ecspecially fantasy had better be 100k (as a rule of thumb) I would hedge, though if you could add 10k you might squeak in there. Perehaps a flashback to an angst-ridden childhood? 
Potter was written/moved at first as juv lit fantasy, where the smaller word count is okay.
VIEW IMAGE"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages." | | Back to Top | | |
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Oscar E.
Stablehand
Date Joined Feb 2007
Total Posts : 4
| Posted 2/8/2007 4:20 PM (GMT -5) | | Thank you crystalwizard and nathan. I appreciate your replies. I want to pitch the first book at the San Francisco Writers conference next week, and was wondering if I needed to puff it up in a hurry. Sounds like I should.
Ah me, back to work.
Oscar | | Back to Top | | |
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Oscar E.
Stablehand
Date Joined Feb 2007
Total Posts : 4
| Posted 2/8/2007 6:29 PM (GMT -5) | | Crystalwizard - Once again, thanks for the input. I'm new, obviously, to this forum and didn't realize people would be so willing to help. Where should I post? Is there a place to post the synopsis as well?
I had read that I should bring the first 10 pages, but thought I would bring one complete copy just in case. If it's really not expected then I can save myself the effort of lugging it around.
Erazmus - Thank you as well. I considered submitting to TOR, but their web site mentioned a 9 month wait to hear from them. I do like a lot of the books they publish - it would be worth the wait if I knew I would be accepted - I've never been particularly patient or virtuous.
Oscar | | Back to Top | | |
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darkbow
Rabbit lord
Date Joined Oct 2005
Total Posts : 1696
| Posted 2/8/2007 8:23 PM (GMT -5) | | Not to be disagreeable ... but I think 83,000 words for a novel might be okay for most fantasy publishers.
If it's an ACTUAL count of 83,000 words, then it will probably be okay once an ESTIMATED count is done, which will probably be closer to 100,000 words.
On the other hand, if the ESTIMATED count is only 83,000 words, then that's probably not enough.
Oscar, in case you need to know ... the ACTUAL count is the count your word processing software will give you for your novel.
The ESTIMATED count is different, and what a good number of publishers use. The ESTIMATED count is usually the average number of words on three lines of text, multiplied by the number of lines per page, then that number multiplied by the number of pages. This number will generally be higher than your actual word count because it also takes into account space at the beginning and ending of chapters, beginnings of paragraphs, etc.
You'll have to check with individual publishers to see what they prefer to use, and how they actually do their estimated count if that's what they use.
www.tyjohnston.blogspot.com | | Back to Top | | |
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crystalwizard
Forum Moderator
Date Joined Nov 2006
Total Posts : 5004
| Posted 2/8/2007 10:13 PM (GMT -5) | | Hasn't caused me any problems.
Something you have to remember:
No one's experience is all conclusive. The companies you want to publish with will have clearly stated guidelines and will also be more than willing to answer any questions.
Not everyone who publishes considers work posted in a public forum to be a problem. You need to ask THEM what they do and don't consider to be published.
Also, Jessie's comment about 'you can't sell exclusive electronic rights' by deleteing the item from your port because it infringes on the rights you've already granted WDC is wrong.
From the WDC FAQ:
When you post your work on Writing.Com, you maintain complete rights to your own material. We highly recommend only posting material that you are sure is your own. Using someone else's material as your own can get you in a lot of trouble. Posting email jokes and messages that you know are not your own also falls into this category.
For your convenience, Writing.Com automatically includes a personal Copyright notice at the end of each item you create. You are free, and encouraged, to sell your work to others, publish it with others or do whatever you wish!
By posting to Writing.Com, you grant us non-exclusive rights to display and store your work on our site. Obviously, we require these rights to show your work to other people who may visit our site. Non-exclusive means that you may give these same rights to anyone else as well; for money or for free.
WDC plainly states you grant them NON-EXCLUSIVE rights and ONLY so they can display your work. If you delete it, they no longer have those rights and they no longer make it available.
Same thing goes if you put it online on WDC and mark it private so that only you can view it. Or password protect it so that only a few can view it privately.
Jessie is a blue case (the little blue rectangle near her name). That means she's a prefered author, not a site admin and not one of the site owners. Her piece is not official WDC policy nor is she empowered to speak for any publisher other than perhaps herself.
So while the piece has merit, it's also far too general in scope.
Never meddle in the affairs of a wizard unless you are soggy and hard to light!
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http://sojourn.omnitech.net | | Back to Top | | |
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Oscar E.
Stablehand
Date Joined Feb 2007
Total Posts : 4
| Posted 2/9/2007 12:40 AM (GMT -5) | | Thanks to everybody for your help - my head is spinning, but I added one thousand words to the book today.
The count is actual - IF my software is accurate (I'm using OpenOffice on Linux).
I don't think I'll post parts of the book at this point. I'm more worried about the synopsis so I may post that tomorrow - will that cause problems?
My basic question with the synopsis is what to include. Since this is a multi-volume series, some things happen in the first book that are only there to set up action in a later book. It is an important part of the total story, but it plays a minor role in this book. Do I include it in the synopsis? (as an example, suppose you're writing a medical sci-fi thriller and a character is injected with a deadly virus. It will eventually have serious consequences, but in the first book he just has random dizzy spells that don't last long).
Thanks again. | | Back to Top | | |
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Jordan Lapp
Top 5 Poster
Date Joined Sep 2006
Total Posts : 2806
| Posted 2/13/2007 10:21 AM (GMT -5) | |
crystalwizard said...
It can't and no one does.
And I repeat, Jessie's wrong about 'exclusive electronic rights'. You can't sell right of first electronic publication perhaps, but if you delete it from your port and it's not online any where, then someone else can by the right to have it exclusively on their site/e-zine She's not wrong. If you read the article again, you'll see that she refers to "First North American Serial Rights", which you cannot sell if you've posted the story online in any form. Most publisher ask for these rights. Some do not.
Of course, it is also difficult to sell exclusive rights because of search engine caching and the fact that people sometimes just copy publicly available information wholesale to their site (not legally, but it happens). If a search Engine has cached your work, it may appear at the same time as the market you sold it to chooses to display it, and hence is not exclusive.
There are plenty of sites that offer private critiquing groups. Critters for once, and Writing.com has a "private" option that allows access to your stories only with a password (which is acceptable to most publishers), so why take chances?
Jeff Stehman said...
Jordan Lapp said...
It doesn't matter if you only post a section. If even parts of a book are posted publicly, you're out of luck. I've never heard anyone take it to that extreme. How can matieral be considered published if it has never been shown to the public?
Jeff. I haven't heard of this happening either. I can't imagine anyone sueing over it, but why take chances?
Certainly, a publisher might ask you to significantly rework the sections that have been posted... but I doubt it. Established authors like Charles Stross and Cory Doctorow are posting entire novels to the web using the creative commons license... but they are established authors, so presumably they have that leaway.
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