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von Darkmoor
Small Press Publisher (and Dancer still)

Date Joined Dec 2005
Total Posts : 3056

Posted Today 9:37 PM (GMT -5)

Step right in, folks, and satisify my curiosity!

I realize there is no way for me to ensure all answers are above-board, but I'd like to know how many of you fellow reader/writers know these words.

*verdigrised

*caried

*nictitated

*enisled

*machicolations

*serried

*prang

I consider myself a well-read person, fairly well-educated, and I believe I know a lot of words. So imagine my shock when I had to look all seven of these up while reading my latest novel, the first three words in the first two pages! I was flabbergasted - to look up one word in a book is rare for me; 3 in 2 pages is -- was -- unheard of.

After looking them up, they all made sense as they are used; 3 of them I did figure out within their context, but 5 of them could have been replaced with much more common words that were basically the first words in each of their definitions.

So, how many did you know?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jason M. Waltz
~ Get with it @ www.vondarkmoor.blogspot.com Today!

Bill Ward
Biblioholic

Date Joined Jul 2006
Total Posts : 1718

Posted 11/23/2006 12:08 AM (GMT -5)

I don't know enisled and prang.

What was the book?

After looking up enisled I think context clues might have given it away, but what was the usage of prang? A southeast asian temple?

darkbow
Rabbit lord

Date Joined Oct 2005
Total Posts : 1696

Posted 11/23/2006 1:19 AM (GMT -5)

Didn't know a one of them. I'm a dunce.

www.tyjohnston.blogspot.com

von Darkmoor
Small Press Publisher (and Dancer still)

Date Joined Dec 2005
Total Posts : 3056

Posted 11/23/2006 1:38 AM (GMT -5)

The book is Ian Cameron Esslemont's Night of Knives, which I have long awaited. If you care to know about it, I just posted my review on my reader-friendly blog

'Enisled' was one of the three I did figure out due to its context, 'caried' and 'machicolations' being the other two.

Now 'prang', that was interesting, as it's the only one I'm still unsure of. My dictionary and Merriam-Webster online both said it meant 'crash, accident' while Wikipedia included what you mentioned, WD - the asian temple spire - as a secondary meaning (I just discovered that, as I had to search around to figure out where you got that from

). It was used in the story as part of an exclamatory remark, like swearing. There is a god named Fener in the tale and the character says something like "What in Fener's prang is going on here?"

There was no accident/crash occuring and they weren't in any temple .. . . seems a tad awkward to me.

And my dear darkbow, you are not a dunce. 270k in finished material does not a dunce make.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jason M. Waltz
~ Get with it @ www.vondarkmoor.blogspot.com Today!

ErylRavenwell
The Feathered Serpent

Date Joined Nov 2005
Total Posts : 100

Posted 11/23/2006 6:48 AM (GMT -5)

None!

But, do you think using such uncommon words in a novel is a good idea? I have one in my novel, "asteism" (meaning gentle irony, which fit the protag like a glove). But I used it because I've yet to find a more widely use synonym for it. If it's trivial, you may as well keep it simple, lest it may sound bombastic.

Beware of words, for they hold a power that can alter the fabric of our minds; intangible words that can summon the dormant predator from the dank recesses of the mind.

~Eryl Ravenwell~

When the Enchantress Whispers to the Beasts

http://erylravenwell.blogspot.com

Bill Ward
Biblioholic

Date Joined Jul 2006
Total Posts : 1718

Posted 11/23/2006 9:48 AM (GMT -5)

In that case Howard I suspect prang is what the great pulpsters would call Fener's manhood.

Didn't know asteism either.

I like to see uncommon words used, but like anything else they need to be used well; they need to suit the tone and pace of the peice, they shouldn't carry the entire meaning of a phrase and leave the reader without context clues, and they shouldn't seem just like an author's attempt to show off or like a thesaurus pull.

gwthomas21
Adept

Date Joined Sep 2004
Total Posts : 973

Posted 11/23/2006 9:58 AM (GMT -5)

*verdigrised - means dirty with rust or oxidization - it comes from brass or copper

*nictitated - means to open and close - such as a membrane on the eye of a Lovecraftian monster

*machicolations - to move by machine or it can mean to engine an event such as a battle

prang - just sounds dirty ;)

GW

G. W. Thomas is editor/publisher of RAGE m a c h i n e Books at www.lulu.com/ragemachinebooks His website is www.gwthomas.org

Rob Santa
Sage

Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 1455

Posted 11/23/2006 10:35 AM (GMT -5)

Hah! I knew the same list as GW. I'll go you one better; I've used them in my writing.

And sorry...machicolations are the openings in a castle wall that archers used to fire at invaders.

Rob Santa

von Darkmoor
Small Press Publisher (and Dancer still)

Date Joined Dec 2005
Total Posts : 3056

Posted 11/23/2006 11:37 AM (GMT -5)

Ding ding ding! We have our winners!

Robert is correct with machicolations - I figured it out due to its context but I still looked it up to get an exact definition.

GW is correct with verdigrised/oxidization - the green discoloring on brass and bronze, in this case a warrior's helm; and nictitated/to open and close - first word in the definition is 'blinked'. When reading, I was wrong on my guess of verdigrised and close on nictitated but blinked would have worked so much better.

Quetz - I have no problem with uncommon words and, as mentioned, the reader is usually able to discern their meaning through the way in which they are used. WD hits it on the head - how does the impressive show of verbiage come across to the reader? In this book, Esslemont uses lots of overly-large or uncommon words which I know and use myself but realize they are bigger words than many readers ever see (just had first hand experience with that in one of my shorts someone asked to read). But when I've hit my third word, one of which I guessed wrongly at, another of which I was vaguely close with my guess, and a third I wasn't sure of at all, all in the first two pages I suspect the author is trying too hard to impress me.

I like a good new word, learning it and adding it to my toolkit; I don't enjoy being schooled in my entertainment reading - it disrupts the story when I have to reread context to get the gist of it or set down the book to find a dictionary.

And I'll tell you right now, I'm sure glad I don't have to swear by an god's manhood! I won't be getting near any prang for a long time to come!

As someone above has so aptly stated . . . "Beware of words, for they hold a power that can alter the fabric of our minds. . ." ~Eryl Ravenwell~

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jason M. Waltz
~ Get with it @ www.vondarkmoor.blogspot.com Today!

ErylRavenwell
The Feathered Serpent

Date Joined Nov 2005
Total Posts : 100

Posted 11/24/2006 1:47 AM (GMT -5)

Now I remember where I've come across this word before. Bow Vs Crossbow. The crossbow was easier to fire through the machicolations, especially by the starvation weakened, besieged troops.

* scribbles the word down in my notebook, as well as enisled (can come handy). Eye the rest with contempt*

Rob Santa said...
Hah! I knew the same list as GW. I'll go you one better; I've used them in my writing.

And sorry...machicolations are the openings in a castle wall that archers used to fire at invaders.

Beware of words, for they hold a power that can alter the fabric of our minds; intangible words that can summon the dormant predator from the dank recesses of the mind.

~Eryl Ravenwell~

When the Enchantress Whispers to the Beasts

http://erylravenwell.blogspot.com

ErylRavenwell
The Feathered Serpent

Date Joined Nov 2005
Total Posts : 100

Posted 11/24/2006 2:07 AM (GMT -5)

I agree. If a word is worth its salt, there is no reason why it shouldn't be used, even if it is uncommon. Besides, a reader may effortlessly guess the meaning of a word like "enisled" by looking at the context the word is used. But, hey, if a writer randomly starts using words like "discombobulated" (confused) in every paragraph, fat chance I'm going to toss this book into the rubbish bin.

Quetz - I have no problem with uncommon words and, as mentioned, the reader is usually able to discern their meaning through the way in which they are used. WD hits it on the head - how does the impressive show of verbiage come across to the reader? In this book, Esslemont uses lots of overly-large or uncommon words which I know and use myself but realize they are bigger words than many readers ever see (just had first hand experience with that in one of my shorts someone asked to read). But when I've hit my third word, one of which I guessed wrongly at, another of which I was vaguely close with my guess, and a third I wasn't sure of at all, all in the first two pages I suspect the author is trying too hard to impress me.

I like a good new word, learning it and adding it to my toolkit; I don't enjoy being schooled in my entertainment reading - it disrupts the story when I have to reread context to get the gist of it or set down the book to find a dictionary.

And I'll tell you right now, I'm sure glad I don't have to swear by an god's manhood! I won't be getting near any prang for a long time to come!

As someone above has so aptly stated . . . "Beware of words, for they hold a power that can alter the fabric of our minds. . ." ~Eryl Ravenwell~

Beware of words, for they hold a power that can alter the fabric of our minds; intangible words that can summon the dormant predator from the dank recesses of the mind.

~Eryl Ravenwell~

When the Enchantress Whispers to the Beasts

http://erylravenwell.blogspot.com

ScrewMoonshine
Adept

Date Joined Aug 2005
Total Posts : 871

Posted 11/24/2006 12:29 PM (GMT -5)

Not only did I not know any of these, two of them(caried and prang) aren't even listed in my dictionary! I use the American Heritage, which is a pretty thick volume, too.

Robert Orme

Out now:
"Such Dreams" in Amazing Journeys Magazine #12
"On the Tree Top" in Ultraverse vol.3 #5 (www.ultraverse.us)

Coming soon: "The Scab, the Man, and the I.V." in Mount Zion Speculative Fiction Review #3

Bill Ward
Biblioholic

Date Joined Jul 2006
Total Posts : 1718

Posted 11/25/2006 11:26 PM (GMT -5)

Don't tell me you sword and sorcery fans didn't know serried? I'd actually not consider that all that uncommon a word.

And I'm thinking this use of prang falls a bit in the slangy side of things, so I wouldn't expect to see it in a dictionary.

caried is one I'm not 100% sure of now that I think about it, I assumed it was a form of 'carious,' so would decribe something rotten and/or holed. what did your dictionary say howard?

von Darkmoor
Small Press Publisher (and Dancer still)

Date Joined Dec 2005
Total Posts : 3056

Posted 11/25/2006 11:41 PM (GMT -5)

The first word in the definitions of

caried = 'decayed'

nictitated = 'blinked'

serried = 'compacted' (which actually made perfect sense after I looked it up, as a character's image was serried in countless mirrors - basically serialized; a rather interesting way to think about it)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jason M. Waltz
~ Get with it @ www.vondarkmoor.blogspot.com Today!

erazmus
Master

Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4539

Posted 11/26/2006 4:35 PM (GMT -5)

Well I knew Prang from its use in the Dutch East Indies to describe a native weapon (mentioned in Stone's Glossary of Arms and Armor, if my memory serves) and I've seen and or used verdigrised, nictitated, and machicolations (which is one of those words I can use correctly but never say right). The other were strangers, though I read and write with a dictionary at hand, usually several but always my _Oxford Dictionary of Current English_ which is the most inclusive pocket dictionary I've found. If I'm at home its backed by over twenty other dictionaries, with _Webster's Universal Encyclopedic Dictionary_ being my current Fatty. I should have joined the Book-of-the-month club back when they offered the two-volume Oxford's dictionary of the english language (with magnifier) as a premium.
Mike

Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Dutchman Rescue"in Continuum SF #6
www.continuumsciencefiction.com/orders.htm

"An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern" in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises

von Darkmoor
Small Press Publisher (and Dancer still)

Date Joined Dec 2005
Total Posts : 3056

Posted 11/26/2006 10:16 PM (GMT -5)

erazmus said...
Well I knew Prang from its use in the Dutch East Indies to describe a native weapon (mentioned in Stone's Glossary of Arms and Armor, if my memory serves) . . .
Mike

Perfect fit, Mike! Thanks! Now, (mumbling to self) gotta find Stone's Glossary . . .

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jason M. Waltz
~ Get with it @ www.vondarkmoor.blogspot.com Today!

Bill Ward
Biblioholic

Date Joined Jul 2006
Total Posts : 1718

Posted 11/26/2006 11:27 PM (GMT -5)

Sure that's not a parang?

erazmus
Master

Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4539

Posted 11/26/2006 11:39 PM (GMT -5)

Hmmnn,
It might be parang, indeed it might. I dunno-- my copt of Stone got soaked a few years back and I haven't replaced it yet. If so, then I got one really wrong. Hehe, I dislike writers who feel a need to show off their amazing vocabularies. If I have to look it up, I'm probably far enough out of the story not to go back. Of course there are exceptions (C.A.Smith, for ex.)
Mike

zornhau
Stablehand

Date Joined Nov 2005
Total Posts : 4

Posted 11/27/2006 8:44 AM (GMT -5)

Pish! Writing isn't about ~~wan~~ playing with words, it's about dumping stories and imagery into the reader's head. If a "smart" word kicks reader back to reality, it has no place on the printed page.

*machicolations - I knew because I'm a castle buff. It's the defensive feature whereby the parapet is offset from the wall by corbels. You can shoot or - more likely - drop missiles between the corbels. It's such a useful term, I would use it in a story, but treat it as I would any made up SF word, and provide some sort of explanation.

*serried - familiar with this one from the cliche "serried ranks". (Note to self, must remove from work in progress).

Bill Ward
Biblioholic

Date Joined Jul 2006
Total Posts : 1718

Posted 11/27/2006 4:20 PM (GMT -5)

I agree that a word that breaks a reader's focus in a story is a bad one, whether it's a common or uncommon word. But I wouldn't say writing is only about communicating stories and imagery, its also about language and rhythm and mood, and sometimes obscure, archaic, and uncommon words are the best fit for a particular piece.

STForstner
Acolyte

Date Joined Nov 2005
Total Posts : 384

Posted 11/27/2006 6:13 PM (GMT -5)

Prang I've never seen before. The others I've seen but would deem 'rare'. I suspect that if it is being used as a curse word then the author probably made it up, and didn't bother to google it to see if it really is a word. (Note to self: start googling those words you make up.)

Some authors like to use odd or unusual words. I've never figured out if it is because they feel smarter doing it; believe they need to use them to be accepted as writers; or simply have those words in their use vocabulary. (This last one seems unlikely).

I read a collection of O. Henry's short stories last spring and noticed in every one he has one word that I would judge to be unusual. Meaning you could pick up the average novel and not find that word used, and might not find it in one of those slim pocket sized dictionaries either.

von Darkmoor
Small Press Publisher (and Dancer still)

Date Joined Dec 2005
Total Posts : 3056

Posted 11/27/2006 8:37 PM (GMT -5)

Glad for the comments, STF, and nice to have you back. It's been awhile since I've seen a post of yours.

To give ICE the benefit of the doubt, I think he's trying to write up to the level of Steven Erikson, his partner in the Malazan world. Both are archeologists and obviously highly educated, but, where Erikson pulled it off (and continues to pull it off), ICE just came off trying to look like Erikson to me. And failed. I liked his story and the information I learned, but I did not like his writing and there's no way his book would have hooked me into The Malazan Book of the Fallen like Erikson's did, so I am so glad I didn't read him first.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jason M. Waltz
~ Get with it @ www.vondarkmoor.blogspot.com Today!

STForstner
Acolyte

Date Joined Nov 2005
Total Posts : 384

Posted 11/28/2006 7:01 PM (GMT -5)

Glad to be back. Thanks for the welcome.

von Darkmoor
Small Press Publisher (and Dancer still)

Date Joined Dec 2005
Total Posts : 3056

Posted 11/28/2006 7:26 PM (GMT -5)

You know who we haven't heard from that probably knows every single one of these words? Frank.

Yooo-hooooo, oh, Frank. Frankie, Frankie, Frankie.

Oh, Frank, where art thou?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jason M. Waltz
~ Get with it @ www.vondarkmoor.blogspot.com Today!

Keralen
Adept

Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 555

Posted 11/30/2006 9:33 AM (GMT -5)

[not having read the entire thread:]

You know Frank, and Senator, I am no Frank. But I knew them except for "prang" though I would really like to know the context for "nictitated." I've heard of "nictitatING membranes" in reptile eyes, so could guess.

[having read the thread]

Oh. I bet he didn't intend "prang" for anything but a euphemism. =prong. Ha ha.

Stephen Donaldson's Covenant books drove me CRAZY. I have a big, traditional vocabulary from reading way too much Dickens, but my copy of each of Donaldson's books has a full page in the back of words I had to jot down and look up. I got the infuriating impression he was just showing off, and haven't chosen to read his stuff since (I also found him a total bummer).

He did, however, teach me a great word, "crepitant." Crepitation is the crackling noise of gas bubbles in gangrenous tissue. Yum!

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