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| SFReader Forums > The Real World > World Events > Boston Tea Party | Forum Quick Jump
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   |  Edward Knight Jack of all Trades and Master of None

       Date Joined Jan 2004 Total Posts : 1050 | Posted 11/18/2007 7:48 PM (GMT -5) |   | Well, if you've studied much history, Washington, Adams, and most certainly Jefferson all felt the same way. Jefferson was under a great deal of pressure to raise taxes in order to pay for a standing army and a navy. He refused to pay for either, instead leaving the nation's defenses up to individual state militias and a sort of makeshift coast gaurd. I believe Madison was the first to start a standing military and navy. It was under his administration that the US built the first six ships in our navy. And that required higher taxes. That stuff did come in handy around 1812 when the British were impressing US citizens into naval duty and boarding our merchant ships without cause.
I do believe that some taxes are a necessary evil. But we've gone way overboard in this country. And the rich do not pay their fair share. For that matter, neither do the poor. An unfair portion of the burden is carried by the working class American, and that ticks me off. I'm a supporter of a flat income tax with no wiggle room. You make 10k you pay 1k. You make 1 million, you pay 100,000. 10% seems fair, certainly no more. Then each state should get a portion of that (2-3% of the amount paid by state residents, maybe) and that's it. No sales tax, property tax, no wheel tax, fuel tax, hunting/fishing licenses... nothing else. If everybody pays 10% there should be enough to go around. If not, the government is spending too much (hence, balanced budget).
We have to pay for roads, education, some degree of military defense... I'm willing to pay my part for the things that must be paid for and willing to pay taxes to do it. But our goverment takes too much and spends too much.
Edward Knight Editor Journey Books Publishing
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    |  Scott M. Sandridge Former King of Shameless Plugs

       Date Joined Dec 2005 Total Posts : 714 | Posted 11/26/2007 7:56 PM (GMT -5) |   | Even though the Supreme Court stated in 2003 that the 16th Amendment was never ratified by the required number of states to make it a legal amendment? Even though the Tax Code uses the term "voluntary compliance" instead of "mandatory requirement"? Even though three Supreme Court Rulings in 1916, 1917, and 1919 (none of which have been overturned) stated that the 16th Amendment does not give the government any new powers of taxation not already allowed by the Constitution and that a direct, unapportioned tax is Unconstitutional?
Also the Supreme Court defined income in the Constitution as Capital Gains and defined monies earned from labor or a service to be private property.
And why have so few been able to fight the IRS over this issue? Well, kind of hard to hire a good lawyer when the IRS just siezes everything you own and the smaller courts don't allow you to defend yourself with the above Supreme Court rulings.
Given the dubious nature of its legality, the IRS can be done away with by a single executive order.
Especially since they can never show a law that requires you to pay it in the first place. Everyone who asks gets ignored. Distant Passages: Volume 1
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  |  erazmus Master

       Date Joined Jul 2005 Total Posts : 4554 | Posted 11/27/2007 12:29 PM (GMT -5) |   | | | |
   |  tchernabyelo Acolyte
        Date Joined Oct 2006 Total Posts : 474 | Posted 11/29/2007 1:21 PM (GMT -5) |   |
Scott M. Sandridge said...
I doubt he'll accomplish everything he wants to while in office (few Presidents ever do), but I look at it this way:
What's the alternative other than an all-out violent overthrow before our country turns into Nazi Germany?
Um, there are very few trends I see in terms of the US turning into anything remotely resembling Nazi Germany. Nazi Germany basically put its entire military-industrial complex at the disposal of the government. What the US has done in the post-Reagan, post-Cold War years is the percise opposite of that.
America has a lot of problems - trade deficit, personal debt, resource shortages - but the idea that removing the IRS will somehow be an improvement is... interesting. If you want to live in a rehash of the 18th century, some balmy dream of the frontier/pioneer nation of omni-competent self-reliant outdoorsmen, yes, get rid of taxation. If you actually want to live in a world with electricity and running water, you may find things need to be handled a little differently.
Brian Dolton
Yi Qin stories:
"The Box Of Beautiful Things" - IGMS#3
"The Man Who Was Never Afraid" - Abyss and Apex #20
"Where No Wind Blows" - Staffs & Starships #2 (forthcoming)
"What The Sea Refuses" - Black Gate (forthcoming)
"At Blue Crane Falls" - Abyss and Apex (forthcoming)
"What The Heart Bears" - Black Gate (forthcoming)
Other Land Of Wind And Ghosts stories:
"The Dragon Path" - Fictitious Force (forthcoming)
"Three Out Of Four" - Sorcerous Signals (forthcoming)
Stories in other settings:
"The Unicorn Hunter" - OG's Speculative Fiction #8
"When Winter Came" - ASIM#32 (forthcoming)
"Cold Fire" - Flashing Swords (forthcoming)
"Call Centre" - Necrotic Tissue (forthcoming) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Scott M. Sandridge Former King of Shameless Plugs

       Date Joined Dec 2005 Total Posts : 714 | Posted 11/29/2007 6:27 PM (GMT -5) |   | |
Google the following, tchernabyelo:
Project for a New American Century
Security and Prosperity Partnership for North America
Building the North American Community
North American Union
the Amero
Patriot Act I
Patriot Act II
Military Commisions Act
There's also a crapload of executive orders whose numbers I can't remember off the top of my head. Not all forms of fascism resembles Nazi Germany exactly.
"Real ID" Act
RFID Chips
Also check out the following documentaries at Google Video:
America: Freedom to Fascism by Aaron Russo
and
Money Masters (How International Bankers Took Over America) by William Still
After you check all that out, then come tell me you still want to pay your Income Tax.
"Fascism should be called Corporatism, because it's the perfect partnership between the corporations and the State." -- Benito Mussolini
Distant Passages: Volume 1
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  |  BethS Adept
        Date Joined Jun 2004 Total Posts : 751 | Posted 11/29/2007 9:13 PM (GMT -5) |   |
Scott M. Sandridge said...
BethS said...
EdK said... And the rich do not pay their fair share.
Define "rich," if you would. Income above what level?
~Beth Since when did the rich ever bother with "income"?
Well, but that's why I want him to define it. People have different ideas of what constitutes rich.
Excluding those who are wealthy enough to live off capital gains and other non-traditional sources of income, the vast majority of all the federal income tax in the US is paid by the upper wage earners.
~Beth | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Scott M. Sandridge Former King of Shameless Plugs

       Date Joined Dec 2005 Total Posts : 714 | Posted 11/29/2007 9:55 PM (GMT -5) |   |
BethS said...
Scott M. Sandridge said...
BethS said...
EdK said... And the rich do not pay their fair share.
Define "rich," if you would. Income above what level?
~Beth Since when did the rich ever bother with "income"?
Well, but that's why I want him to define it. People have different ideas of what constitutes rich.
Excluding those who are wealthy enough to live off capital gains and other non-traditional sources of income, the vast majority of all the federal income tax in the US is paid by the upper wage earners.
~Beth
Yep. But that's only half of the one-two punch being used to eliminate the Middle Class. The other half is deliberately inflating the dollar until its value eventually reaches 0. Currently, The Federal Reserve Note is only worth 5 cents compared to what its value was when first introduced in 1913.
Hence why there's been talk (rarely) in the market-news shows of a "new currency" soon to be introduced: the Amero, to be the standard currency for United States, Canada, and Mexico. But of course, like our current Dollar, it won't be backed by anything of real tangible value, either.
The exact same system that's been used since the first empires were formed:
Create a problem (or sometimes just take advantage of one already created)
Wait for the expected reaction
Then offer the "solution"
But the Amero "solution" will be offered at the expense of trading our Constitution for a new one. One where your rights are granted by Government instead of being inalienable. And where a NAU tribunal court will have jurisdiction over our Supreme Court.
And all on our wonderful tax dollars.
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  |  tchernabyelo Acolyte
        Date Joined Oct 2006 Total Posts : 474 | Posted 12/7/2007 9:10 AM (GMT -5) |   |
Scott M. Sandridge said...
Not all forms of fascism resembles Nazi Germany exactly.
Well, no, certainly not. But your earlier post specifically referred to the US turning into Nazi Germany, which is what I was taking issue with. There's no doubt that there are trends in the US moving towards centralism, but there's equally no doubt that there are trends away from that as well. Indeed, the more the Republican party moves to align itself with the Neo-Con world-view, the more it loses the support of the more libertarian elements of its base. There is a real possibility of a significant split in Republican grass-roots support, which might well counter the disadvantage the Democrats have in trying to get Hillary or Barack elected (I do find it deperssing that in the World's Greatest Democracy, a woman is still seen as unelectable by the majority of voters - if Pakistan can have a female head of state, which it id, then surely the US could manage it.
I am aware of many of the issue you cite, though some were new to me (the "Amero", for instance, but it is a logical extensian of the NAU planners).
Asking me whether I still want to pay my taxes, however, is a side note. I don't live in the US. I do live in the UK, though, where tax money goes to (and flows back from) the European Parliament and Commission. So I do know something about the operation of federal supra-states, and I freely admit that the EU is NOT run in a fashion that I consider adequately democratic.
But it isn't about where your tax dollars go. It's about who you choose to elect and how they represent your interests.
Yi Qin stories:
"The Box Of Beautiful Things" - IGMS#3
"The Man Who Was Never Afraid" - Abyss and Apex #20
"Where No Wind Blows" - Staffs & Starships #2 (forthcoming)
"What The Sea Refuses" - Black Gate (forthcoming)
"At Blue Crane Falls" - Abyss and Apex (forthcoming)
"What The Heart Bears" - Black Gate (forthcoming)
Other Land Of Wind And Ghosts stories:
"The Dragon Path" - Fictitious Force (forthcoming)
"Three Out Of Four" - Sorcerous Signals (forthcoming)
Stories in other settings:
"The Unicorn Hunter" - OG's Speculative Fiction #8
"When Winter Came" - ASIM#32 (forthcoming)
"Cold Fire" - Flashing Swords (forthcoming)
"Call Centre" - Necrotic Tissue (forthcoming) | | Back to Top | | |
  |  Scott M. Sandridge Former King of Shameless Plugs

       Date Joined Dec 2005 Total Posts : 714 | Posted 12/7/2007 6:41 PM (GMT -5) |   |
tchernabyelo said...
Scott M. Sandridge said...
Not all forms of fascism resembles Nazi Germany exactly.
Well, no, certainly not. But your earlier post specifically referred to the US turning into Nazi Germany, which is what I was taking issue with. There's no doubt that there are trends in the US moving towards centralism, but there's equally no doubt that there are trends away from that as well. Indeed, the more the Republican party moves to align itself with the Neo-Con world-view, the more it loses the support of the more libertarian elements of its base. There is a real possibility of a significant split in Republican grass-roots support, which might well counter the disadvantage the Democrats have in trying to get Hillary or Barack elected (I do find it deperssing that in the World's Greatest Democracy, a woman is still seen as unelectable by the majority of voters - if Pakistan can have a female head of state, which it id, then surely the US could manage it.
I am aware of many of the issue you cite, though some were new to me (the "Amero", for instance, but it is a logical extensian of the NAU planners).
Asking me whether I still want to pay my taxes, however, is a side note. I don't live in the US. I do live in the UK, though, where tax money goes to (and flows back from) the European Parliament and Commission. So I do know something about the operation of federal supra-states, and I freely admit that the EU is NOT run in a fashion that I consider adequately democratic.
But it isn't about where your tax dollars go. It's about who you choose to elect and how they represent your interests.
I wasn't saying we're like Nazi Germany yet (if that's how it sounded, I apologize), just heading in that direction. Our current state is eerily similar to that of the Weimer Republic back in '31-'32. Just trade Blackwater USA for the brownshirts and you'll see what I mean (they were employed in New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina. They also recently received a 6 billion dollar contract to do more "security" operations here in the States).
But I am glad someone other than me on this forum is aware of the NAU plans. I have noticed that people overseas know more about it than people here at home.
"Indeed, the more the Republican party moves to align itself with the Neo-Con world-view, the more it loses the support of the more libertarian elements of its base."
True. But a lot of people are returning to the Republican party just to vote for Ron Paul, the only repub candidate with Libertarian values (He ran once before as a Libertarian back in '88). The Libertarian Party, Constitution Party, and Green Party have endorsed him and said they won't run a candidate if he gets the Republican nomination (instead they'll encourage all their party members to vote for him).
Quick question: what do you know about the fractional reserve system used by central banks?
Distant Passages: Volume 1
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 |  BethS Adept
        Date Joined Jun 2004 Total Posts : 751 | Posted 12/8/2007 11:55 AM (GMT -5) |   |
EdK said...Sorry, I've ignored this thread for a while and come back to find a question posted to me. "Rich" is a relative term. I grew up poor as dirt (only slightly better off now). So my opinion is slanted a bit. I'm not sure if I have a dollar amount in mind. But since you ask, I'd say $200,000 a year is wealthy. People making under $50,000 (household) are really struggling to make ends meet. IMO, it seems folks making $500,000+ a year pay in lower percentage of income tax than say a person making $50,000. The higher the income the greater the difference. That's not right, if you ask me.
As you say, it's relative. To me, $200K a year is well-off, but not wealthy. Wealthy is in excess of a million a year, with stocks and assets that provide additional income on top of that.
Be that as it may, if that $500K a year you mention is salary, you'd better believe they pay a high percentage in income tax. Income taxes do NOT get lower when the salary goes up.
~Beth | | Back to Top | | |
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