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Silverdrake
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   Posted 8/7/2007 7:07 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Late reply. Been busy.

Daniel said...
We couldn't be any further apart on this one! I don't see good side to global warming and I believe in the science that suggests global warming is related to man-made pollutants. Sorry. You probably won't have much luck convincing me otherwise! ;-)


The models that "science" uses pre-suppose that the warming is caused by man-made pollutants. This is circular reasoning -- a logical fallacy. The models are also incapable of "predicting" documented weather history, even when programmed with the information. IOW, the models are deliberately created and manipulated to provide only the results that support the agenda of their creators. Garbage in, garbage out.

As for your comment that my fiefdom/collective analogy is silly, pray provide a better one for government theft of private land from the poor for the benefit of the rich.

On educaton, I wasn't talking about "education under Bush" but rather the trends that have developed over the last several decades. Why do you turn everything around to where you can point fingers at Bush?


Cogito cogito, ergo cogito sum.

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MichaelEhart
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   Posted 8/8/2007 1:19 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ahhh Silverdrake, why do Bush supporters never allow him to take responsibility for anything, but blame everything in the known universe on Clinton?
Wasn't the beginning of Bush's time self-proclaimed as the "responsiblity adminstration?"
Bush gets extra blame for NCLB, which used fudged numbers to get passed and then was seriously underfunded.
I disagree with every conservative back to Aristotle--- our kids are not less educated than the golden age of our youth, anymore than we were less educated than in the golden age of our parents or they theirs, ad absurbum. They just know a different set of useless crap.
Spend a few moment checking out the WASL requirements for Washington State where I live. Could you graduate under those standards? I doubt I could.


Read me in 2007!
"The View From the Shotglass Floor" Ray Gun Revival, Feb 2007
"Voice of the Spoiler" The Sword Review, June 2007
"Servant of the Manthycore" The Sword Review, July 2007
"Darkling I Listen; and for Many a Time" Fear and Trembling, coming soon!
"Weaving Spiders Come Not Here" The Sword Review, August 2007
"Six Zombies Doing That Mick Jagger Strut" Damned in Dixie, Summer 2007
"Nothing But Our Tears" The Sword Review, September 2007
"Night of Shadows, Night of Knives" Magic and Mechanica, Fall 2007
"The Scarlet Colored Beast" The Sword Review, October 2007
"The Stars by Law, Forbidden" Unparalleled Journeys II, November 2007
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MichaelEhart
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   Posted 8/8/2007 1:24 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Would have been courteous of me to include the link, huh? http://www.k12.wa.us/assessment/WASL/MathTestItemSpec.aspx#2006
Sorry!


Read me in 2007!
"The View From the Shotglass Floor" Ray Gun Revival, Feb 2007
"Voice of the Spoiler" The Sword Review, June 2007
"Servant of the Manthycore" The Sword Review, July 2007
"Darkling I Listen; and for Many a Time" Fear and Trembling, coming soon!
"Weaving Spiders Come Not Here" The Sword Review, August 2007
"Six Zombies Doing That Mick Jagger Strut" Damned in Dixie, Summer 2007
"Nothing But Our Tears" The Sword Review, September 2007
"Night of Shadows, Night of Knives" Magic and Mechanica, Fall 2007
"The Scarlet Colored Beast" The Sword Review, October 2007
"The Stars by Law, Forbidden" Unparalleled Journeys II, November 2007
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MichaelEhart
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   Posted 8/8/2007 1:30 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
That being said, I do agree that I would like to see more history, civics, and geography being taught. This doesn't mean our education system sucks, it just means some curriculum tweaking. Critical thinking skills are important, too. After all, without a critical thinking vocabulary, what would we on this forum have to abuse? :)


Read me in 2007!
"The View From the Shotglass Floor" Ray Gun Revival, Feb 2007
"Voice of the Spoiler" The Sword Review, June 2007
"Servant of the Manthycore" The Sword Review, July 2007
"Darkling I Listen; and for Many a Time" Fear and Trembling, coming soon!
"Weaving Spiders Come Not Here" The Sword Review, August 2007
"Six Zombies Doing That Mick Jagger Strut" Damned in Dixie, Summer 2007
"Nothing But Our Tears" The Sword Review, September 2007
"Night of Shadows, Night of Knives" Magic and Mechanica, Fall 2007
"The Scarlet Colored Beast" The Sword Review, October 2007
"The Stars by Law, Forbidden" Unparalleled Journeys II, November 2007
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Silverdrake
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   Posted 8/8/2007 6:39 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
MichaelEhart said...
Ahhh Silverdrake, why do Bush supporters never allow him to take responsibility for anything, but blame everything in the known universe on Clinton?


It's the same obsession, from my view. The left made fun of the right for doing it, now it's the left's turn to be made fun of for the same mental disfunction, s'far as I'm concerned.

MichaelEhart said...
Bush gets extra blame for NCLB, which used fudged numbers to get passed and then was seriously underfunded.


It made an even bigger mess of education than was already there, causing schools to "teach the test" and ignore everything that's not on it. One net acquaintance has a straight-A student who was handed a C for a subject she never had in class. Required class for advancement, but they were always in another class being taught the test. Needless to say, the acquaintance, her husband and their daughter raised holy hell over it.

MichaelEhart said...
I disagree with every conservative back to Aristotle--- our kids are not less educated than the golden age of our youth, anymore than we were less educated than in the golden age of our parents or they theirs, ad absurbum. They just know a different set of useless crap.


Knowing that a word is a root word and can be modified in many ways using prefixes and suffixes (each with their own meaning) is hardly useless crap. That is one thing that has been lost since I was in school. The 4 laws of basic math have likewise been lost. The students I see on my guard post don't know they even exist, and are amazed when I tell them that learning the medical math for their classes could be just as simple as finding and learning those 4 laws.

Useless crap, to me, includes brainwashing students into a certain political mindset by selective sorting of the facts intermixed with agenda-driven falsehoods. Forex, my son's Biology book states that global warming is caused by human pollution from petroleum use -- utterly ignoring that no such thing was in existance to cause the Medieval Warm Period, which preceded the Little Ice Age, from which world temperatures are only now recovering.

MichaelEhart said...
Spend a few moment checking out the WASL requirements for Washington State where I live. Could you graduate under those standards? I doubt I could.


I'll give it a look. Getting ready for work, right now. Thanks for the followup link.


Cogito cogito, ergo cogito sum.

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Silverdrake
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   Posted 8/8/2007 6:47 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
MichaelEhart said...
That being said, I do agree that I would like to see more history, civics, and geography being taught. This doesn't mean our education system sucks, it just means some curriculum tweaking. Critical thinking skills are important, too. After all, without a critical thinking vocabulary, what would we on this forum have to abuse? :)


Heh. Critical thinking skills were something I had to learn on my own. They apparently were removed from school curriculums as a failed experiment back in the 50s. Seems the government thought it would be a really good idea to teach kids to parse Communist propaganda so they could see through it, and dang if the kids didn't turn right around and apply those same skills to the government's own propaganda! Oops! Couldn't have them doing that! So the skills were removed from the curricula.

But what you said about vocabulary goes right back to my previous post, in that kids aren't being taught any actual vocabulary, but some mish-mash of words with no relation to each other. "Whole word recognition" ends up with kids having some idea of how to get an idea across, but it sure as hell doesn't result in anything approaching clear communication. They thrown in whatever looks right, with no idea that what they wrote is completely different from what they meant. Hell, that was true 15 years ago. The instructor for the Editing for Journalism class I took spent the first two weeks of the semester teaching roots, prefixes, and suffixes. Most of the students had no idea that the latter two had any meaning of their own, or could be applied to any word except those they'd been taught already had them.


Cogito cogito, ergo cogito sum.

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Silverdrake
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   Posted 8/9/2007 5:03 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Okay, I've looked over the WASL requirements. The ones for 10th grade -- from what I can decode from the overly jargoned edu-speak -- are mostly what I was learning in 6th grade. The only things I saw that I hadn't covered in grade- or middle school pertained to the statistical evaluations. I don't recall those being covered in math class, per se, but rather taught as part of several subjects using examples from the topic under discussion, particularly in science and social studies classes.

For other comparison of standards: My father had correspondence texts from his early life (he had to work to support his family during his teens after his father was disabled). The math in those I never encounted before college, and they were, for their time, high school equivalencies. About 10th grade, iirc.

So I have to continue to disagree with your statement that current standards are just as good as those that earlier generations had to meet. The standards of my father's generation were far beyond those of mine, and the standards of my generation were far beyond those of today.


Cogito cogito, ergo cogito sum.

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MichaelEhart
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   Posted 8/9/2007 8:43 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'll see if I can stir up the sample test questions--- the standards are deceptive, as the actual questions are quite difficult.
I just find it (logically speaking) difficult to believe that every generation since Aristotle has been less well educated. There is a vanishing point somewhere, and you would think that after over 2000 years of complaining about this we would have reached it. Yet, books are still written, the lights come on when you throw the switch, and the countryside is not ravished by migratory hordes of sub-literate prolls.
Except in Oklahoma, of course. :)


Read me in 2007!
"The View From the Shotglass Floor" Ray Gun Revival, Feb 2007
"Voice of the Spoiler" The Sword Review, June 2007
"Servant of the Manthycore" The Sword Review, July 2007
"Darkling I Listen; and for Many a Time" Fear and Trembling, coming soon!
"Weaving Spiders Come Not Here" The Sword Review, August 2007
"Six Zombies Doing That Mick Jagger Strut" Damned in Dixie, Summer 2007
"Nothing But Our Tears" The Sword Review, September 2007
"Night of Shadows, Night of Knives" Magic and Mechanica, Fall 2007
"The Scarlet Colored Beast" The Sword Review, October 2007
"The Stars by Law, Forbidden" Unparalleled Journeys II, November 2007
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Scott M. Sandridge
Former King of Shameless Plugs



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   Posted 9/3/2007 6:39 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
MichaelEhart said...
I'll see if I can stir up the sample test questions--- the standards are deceptive, as the actual questions are quite difficult.
I just find it (logically speaking) difficult to believe that every generation since Aristotle has been less well educated. There is a vanishing point somewhere, and you would think that after over 2000 years of complaining about this we would have reached it. Yet, books are still written, the lights come on when you throw the switch, and the countryside is not ravished by migratory hordes of sub-literate prolls.
Except in Oklahoma, of course. :)

I don't know about since Aristotle, but when 8 out of 10 people age 17-21 don't even know who the hell Abraham Lincoln is, something is seriously wrong. I learned about him in freakin' grade school!


Distant Passages: Volume 1
 
Which lich fell in the ditch?

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Scott Fazekas
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   Posted 9/4/2007 8:51 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Very interesting and informative thread here, even if it has gotten off the original "Congress Hits Low" thread.

My two cents:  for Congress to be effective, some changes would be required.  For example:

1.  Set strict term limits.  Although I ignore polls in general, overwhelmingly they show Americans support the idea -- and Congress doesn't.  Go figure.   The big argument against term limits seems to be one of experience, ie, if the body politic is constantly replacing politicians, the Republic loses legislative and political expertise.  But that's exactly what I want!  I'd rather have a passionate amateur than a jaded "professional" in Congress. 

2.  Repeal the 17th Amendment to the Constitution.  Have Senators elected by state legislatures, but rewrite the laws to prevent issues like 1850 Indiana etc.  Let's level the Federal playing field some.

3.  Accountability.  If I'd engaged in misconduct at work, I'd have been prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.  Rightfully so.  Congressmen and women who engage in misconduct, if and when found guilty, should be held accountable under the law.  Period.  And tossed out of office.

4.  Meaningful campaign finance reform.  A lot of this may be taken care of by point 1. above.  Those parts of it that are not should be very closely controlled and monitored.  It's not healthy for our Republic to have legislative elections so expensive that the average citizen has little chance of competing.

5.  Protocol.  Why should I, as an American citizen, be shoved to the back of the line by a Congresswoman or man?  Why should these 'public servants' get front row seats, special privileges or treatment just by virtue of elected office?  We're a Revolutionary Republic, f'cryin' out loud, where "all men (and women) are created equal."  Drop all the red carpet treatment, and let 'em get a taste of standing in line at Maryland MVA for three hours just like me.  NOTE:  in ancient Sparta, the ruling kings would run when summoned to the citizen assembly, would rise when addressed by a citizen in a public forum, and fought in the first rank of the phalanx in wartime.  How many Congressmen and women act like that?

Now, I think it was Daniel who made a comment about cracking a history book...we'd do well to pay attention to the examples of Athens or late Republican Rome here.  Those ancients faced similar issues, at least on a macro scale, and were largely unsuccessful in resolving them.

Any bets on any meaningful reform in Congress happening soon?  Doesn't matter a whit which party's in power.  I feel like Churchill, who when voted out of office during WWII said "people tend to get the government they deserve."


V/R
S Fazekas
Aneriphthos kubos!

"When asked by a Persian foreigner how far the boundaries of Sparta extended, King Agesilaus brandished his spear and said, 'as far as this can reach'."

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Jeff Stehman
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   Posted 9/4/2007 11:39 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Scott, I hadn't heard that stat. Do you have a source I can look at?


--Jeff Stehman

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Scott M. Sandridge
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   Posted 9/5/2007 7:53 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

I spent a little time asking every one in that age range that I ran into what they knew about Abraham Lincoln, and 8 out of 10 of them asked me who he was. Could just be Columbus and Toledo schools, but still, that's pretty bad. After asking 30, I pretty much shrugged my shoulders and gave up in frustration. Later I discovered that from parents and students that History isn't even a required class in many of the schools anymore.

I had to tell everyone in my family age 20 on down who he was. None of them knew.

 
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James Enge
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   Posted 9/5/2007 11:32 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Well, I don' t know what to tell you. History is still required in Bowling Green (OH) schools, and I'm pretty sure they're adhering to a statewide standard.

In fact, the standard (online as a PDF at the page below) requires 3 units (i.e. years) of social studies as a minimum for graduation from Ohio high schools; at least half a unit (i.e. half an academic year) has to be in American history.

www.ode.state.oh.us/GD/Templates/Pages/ODE/ODEDetail.aspx?page=3&TopicRelationID=1202&ContentID=15291&Content=33921

It's possible you just hit a bad sample or people didn't understand what you were asking. If someone asked me in conversation if I'd heard of Abraham Lincoln I might assume that they weren't talking about the guy on the penny, but rather about someone I really might not have heard about. This happens every now and then. I still remember when someone asked me about the Dead Kennedys, and it turned out they weren't talking about JFK & RFK. Likewise there was that time when someone said something about Marc Anthony and I was sure they meant Marc Antony--but it turned out they didn't.




James Enge

http://jamesenge.com/

"Turn Up This Crooked Way" (selected by Rich Horton for his "Virtual Best" of 2005) in Black Gate 8

"A Covenant with Death" in Flashing Swords 6

"The Red Worm's Way" in Flashing Swords E-Zine Annual

"A Book of Silences" in Black Gate 10

"The Lawless Hours" forthcoming in Black Gate 11

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Scott M. Sandridge
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   Posted 9/6/2007 9:42 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Only half a unit? That's not even enough to cover the basics! Down in Kentucky where I went to school, if you didn't have 2 credits in History (one in American history and one in either Social Studies or World History), you didn't pass. Of course, that was back in the late 80s-early 90s.

I studied American History and Social Studies. I wasn't too impressed with Social Studies. And them not having Ancient History taught in high school left me pissed off.

 
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James Enge
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   Posted 9/6/2007 10:55 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
In general, I would say more history would be better. Things could always be better than they are. (I'm still mad because my high school wouldn't teach me Latin, even though some students were interested and a teacher was willing to teach it. That was back in the late 70s.) But three years of social science (including history) is not nothing. They have to study other stuff worth studying in that time (English/Language Arts, foreign languages, the sciences, etc.). I really don't think Ohio schools are slacking off.




James Enge

http://jamesenge.com/

"Turn Up This Crooked Way" (selected by Rich Horton for his "Virtual Best" of 2005) in Black Gate 8

"A Covenant with Death" in Flashing Swords 6

"The Red Worm's Way" in Flashing Swords E-Zine Annual

"A Book of Silences" in Black Gate 10

"The Lawless Hours" forthcoming in Black Gate 11

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Scott M. Sandridge
Former King of Shameless Plugs



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   Posted 9/6/2007 12:46 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Perhaps. But with the way things have been going overall, I wouldn't be surprised if our schools eventually start teaching that 2+2=5 and that Big Brother loves us and wants to keep us safe. After all, the media has already been saying it in round-about ways since 9/11. I still get a laugh at hearing how mercury is supposed to be good for us now. I believe that as much as I believe that bathing in volcanic lava is good for the skin.



Distant Passages: Volume 1
 
Which lich fell in the ditch?

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James Enge
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   Posted 9/6/2007 1:06 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
"mercury is supposed to be good for us now"

Who's claiming this?




James Enge

http://jamesenge.com/

"Turn Up This Crooked Way" (selected by Rich Horton for his "Virtual Best" of 2005) in Black Gate 8

"A Covenant with Death" in Flashing Swords 6

"The Red Worm's Way" in Flashing Swords E-Zine Annual

"A Book of Silences" in Black Gate 10

"The Lawless Hours" forthcoming in Black Gate 11

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Scott M. Sandridge
Former King of Shameless Plugs



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   Posted 9/6/2007 2:10 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZArebYZzdc&mode=related&search=
 
 
Yet the CDC doesn't seem to agree:
 


Distant Passages: Volume 1
 
Which lich fell in the ditch?

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Scott Fazekas
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   Posted 9/6/2007 8:26 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jeff, sorry I didn't get back to you sooner.  Check out this website:
 
 
Just for fun, I watched "Mr. Smith Goes To Washington" this afternoon.  I was possessed of two thoughts:
 
1.  Hollywood would not make this movie today.  First off, there's not one actor (not ONE) with James Stewart's credibility for that role.  By this I mean, Stewart flew heavy bombers in WWII -- 25 missions over Germany -- and really did believe in this country.  I take a look at the service records of and read statements by "actors" like Pierce Brosnan, Woody Harrelson and George Clooney, and I never want to see another movie made after 1980.
2.  Congress is even more corrupt today than Frank Capra depicted it in the 50s.  Take just the media for an example.  Today, 8 huge conglomerates control between them:
--all the major daily newspapers
--almost all news magazines
--all the major broadcast networks
--most of the major cable broadcasters
--virtually all of the radio broadcasters
--most of the major book publishers.
These conglomerates are concerned primarily with making money.  Why else do you think we get so many "news" stories on Lindsay Lohan and Princess Diana, and so few on the proposed merger of Sirius and XM satellite radio?  It's because these conglomerates are beholden to advertising dollars, and advertisers don't want a well-informed, discerning public.  And this all plays into Congressional hands, not just because of campaign contributions and lobbyist dollars but also because without press scrutiny, they can do damn well what they please.  Have a look at all the pork John Murtha chows down on (Republicans are no different) and how little press attention it gets and you'll see what I mean. 
 
Boy, am I on my soapbox or what?  Even if no one is listening....
 


V/R
S Fazekas
Aneriphthos kubos!

"When asked by a Persian foreigner how far the boundaries of Sparta extended, King Agesilaus brandished his spear and said, 'as far as this can reach'."

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Jeff Stehman
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   Posted 9/6/2007 10:48 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Sorry, I didn't notice the two Scotts in a row. My question was for Sandridge.

"That's kind of confusing. Mind if we call you Bruce? <pshhh!>"


--Jeff Stehman

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