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| SFReader Forums > The Real World > World Events > released GITMO prisoner | Forum Quick Jump
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 |  MichaelEhart Sage

       Date Joined Jul 2005 Total Posts : 2352 | Posted 7/26/2007 3:28 PM (GMT -5) |   | Okay Nathan, this was clearly just a cage rattler. You can do better :) Read me in 2007!
"The View From the Shotglass Floor" Ray Gun Revival, Feb 2007
"Voice of the Spoiler" The Sword Review, June 2007
"Servant of the Manthycore" The Sword Review, July 2007
"Darkling I Listen; and for Many a Time" Fear and Trembling, coming soon!
"Weaving Spiders Come Not Here" The Sword Review, August 2007
"Six Zombies Doing That Mick Jagger Strut" Damned in Dixie, Summer 2007
"Nothing But Our Tears" The Sword Review, September 2007
"Night of Shadows, Night of Knives" Magic and Mechanica, Fall 2007
"The Scarlet Colored Beast" The Sword Review, October 2007
"The Stars by Law, Forbidden" Unparalleled Journeys II, November 2007
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  |  PaulMc Adept

       Date Joined May 2005 Total Posts : 992 | Posted 7/26/2007 3:31 PM (GMT -5) |   | | | |
 |  nathan Sage

       Date Joined Mar 2006 Total Posts : 2176 | Posted 7/26/2007 4:03 PM (GMT -5) |   |
PaulMc said...
Maybe if he had been brought to public trial, he would've been found guilty and served more time
Yes? Four years and a Johhny Cochoran style lawyer would have been just great?
This is confusing. There's no war on terror. We should be letting these guys go so they can return to their peaceful lives.
Probablly what happened was that he was innocently rounded up after taking a wrong turn at Khandar but the extreme torture he was exposed to at Gitmo morphed him into a radical.
Sigh...when will we ever learn to stop bringing this sort of thing on ourselves? VIEW IMAGE"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages." | | Back to Top | | |
 |  erazmus Master

       Date Joined Jul 2005 Total Posts : 4554 | Posted 7/26/2007 4:10 PM (GMT -5) |   | | | |
 |  nathan Sage

       Date Joined Mar 2006 Total Posts : 2176 | Posted 7/26/2007 4:19 PM (GMT -5) |   | I can see you have no respect for his basic human rights. He has a right to privacy.
Yeah, sure he killed a lot of people but two wrongs don't make a right.
Rather his release is an example of a superior thought process. One that acknowledges a higher moral code. Sure he did wrong after his release, but by not giving into fear and changing who we, as Americans, are, his release can be seen as a victory.
A fer more victories like this and Musharef will fall thus earsing the stain of America's association with a dictator. What a happy day that will be, one without tangible benifit, but one that lifts are collective hearts along the path toward a collective good.
I wouldn't expect you to understand Mr. Neocon. VIEW IMAGE "Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages." | | Back to Top | | |
  |  nathan Sage

       Date Joined Mar 2006 Total Posts : 2176 | Posted 7/26/2007 4:38 PM (GMT -5) |   |
PaulMc said...
nathan said...
PaulMc said...
Maybe if he had been brought to public trial, he would've been found guilty and served more time
Yes? Four years and a Johhny Cochoran style lawyer would have been just great? "If the bomb vest does not fit, you must acquit!" So, what DO we do with the 'detainees' at Gitmo? Keep them as Prisoners of War until the 'war' is over? Who signs the peace treaty? I'm not saying he was an angel, but if we claim due process and just leave people to rot...? What the hell ever happen to covert wet works? Was a time we wouldn't have even KNOWN this guy EVER existed... Maybe the problem with the WAR on Terror was it should have been BLACK OPS on Terror all along... Crap. At this point, I don't even know if I'm being sarcastic or sincere with that idea... Honest!
To be honest I think given the nature of the war (if we can agree it's a war) is such that they stay. If you see this as a war then it like say friendly fire, is just something we live with. We caught 'em, we keep 'em. We do it with criminals charged with multiple murders in the US all the time. Why would war criminals be different?
Or, here's a thought. We give them back to their own governments. Let the Pakistani's house him. He's paki, it's his national right to be in the Paki justice system. Same for all of them. Let them go to Syrian, Egyptian, Saudi, Paki court systems. Those systems have more authority over them than us from an international sense, I think if I'm remembering correctly.
I agree one hundred percent with the war being black ops only--for majority. As to why he wasn't killed I can only offer this up (all teasing aside): the screaming matches between JSOC commanders and Pentagon lawyers are a matter of much publisized record.
How deep do you have to go to get an order to release and execute? Who gives the order? Is it told to the President making him culpible?
If it came to light from investigative journalism that Gitmo releasee's were turning up dead days later how would the NYT run the headline?
According to the Red Cross Gitmo guys have it much better than our own captured soldiers. Let them grow old there. It gives them time to study the Koran. VIEW IMAGE "Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages." | | Back to Top | | |
  |  erazmus Master

       Date Joined Jul 2005 Total Posts : 4554 | Posted 7/26/2007 4:47 PM (GMT -5) |   | | | |
   |  erazmus Master

       Date Joined Jul 2005 Total Posts : 4554 | Posted 7/26/2007 4:53 PM (GMT -5) |   | | | |
 |  Daniel Carl Jung's Waterboy

       Date Joined Aug 2003 Total Posts : 4515 | Posted 7/26/2007 4:54 PM (GMT -5) |   | | If you had responsible leadership in place all of the issues pertaining to detainess would be easier to sort out. It is the abuse of power issues that muck everything up. NSA spying is a perfect example. The FISA court is there for a reason, why circumvent it?
Nothing useful for the war on terror was prevented by FISA or gained by going around it. It was an abuse of power just like Gitmo, just like Guantanamo.
The whole idea of the neocons was to get the "enemy combatant" thing and the military tribunal thing going to be able to make people disappear without a trial or any public notice whatsoever. At the President's discretion.
My only wish is that those who support these kinds of fascist programs would have to endure them personally!
"Art is the celebration of the ego's destruction."
Daniel | | Back to Top | | |
 |  nathan Sage

       Date Joined Mar 2006 Total Posts : 2176 | Posted 7/26/2007 4:56 PM (GMT -5) |   | I never understood the distaste for military tribunals. As an institution they're older than the US court system. Also these are citizens of another nation, we don't have the right as a matter of internal law enforcement to slap the constitution on them, even more so if they're fighting against it.
How do we deal with foriegn hostile/criminal interests? The military has a long track record here. Give them a speed trail by military tribunal.
The military, not civilian law enforcement, seem to have proper juristiction in this case, a long tradition going back to the Contential Army and pleny, o'plenty of lawyers. VIEW IMAGE "Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages." | | Back to Top | | |
      |  MichaelEhart Sage

       Date Joined Jul 2005 Total Posts : 2352 | Posted 7/26/2007 5:11 PM (GMT -5) |   |
erazmus said... We had nothing on this guy, or we wouldn't have let him go. No matter what we learn latter, if we want to hold on to somebody, we should have a solid reason. Otherwise we will hold on to everybody until we collasp.
He's dead now. final outcome: satisfactory. If we wait until "its over" to release anybody, it'll start over again every time we let some people go. Very Orwellian, that. Wow, Mike, I am buying a lotto ticket! Who'da thunk you would turn out to be a civil libertarian, even if the route is circuitous? That of course is the purpose of habeas corpus, to force us to either find a solid reason to imprison someone or to let them go. The biggest issue that most of us dirty f'n hippies have with Gitmo is that there never was a process to determine guilt. They were just dumped there.
The founding fathers believed so strongly in fair trial that John Adams defended the soldiers involved in the Boston Massacre, which was just as big of a deal in the public mind then as 9/11 is now.
"I. . .devoted myself to endless labour and Anxiety if not to infamy and death, and that for nothing, except, what indeed was and ought to be all in all, a sense of duty. In the Evening I expressed to Mrs. Adams all my Apprehensions: That excellent Lady, who has always encouraged me, burst into a flood of Tears, but said she was very sensible of all the Danger to her and to our Children as well as to me, but she thought I had done as I ought, she was very willing to share in all that was to come and place her trust in Providence.
"Before or after the Tryal, Preston sent me ten Guineas and at the Tryal of the Soldiers afterwards Eight Guineas more, which were. . .all the pecuniary Reward I ever had for fourteen or fifteen days labour, in the most exhausting and fatiguing Causes I ever tried: for hazarding a Popularity very general and very hardly earned: and for incurring a Clamour and popular Suspicions and prejudices, which are not yet worn out and never will be forgotten as long as History of this Period is read...It was immediately bruited abroad that I had engaged for Preston and the Soldiers, and occasioned a great clamour....
"The Part I took in Defence of Cptn. Preston and the Soldiers, procured me Anxiety, and Obloquy enough. It was, however, one of the most gallant, generous, manly and disinterested Actions of my whole Life, and one of the best Pieces of Service I ever rendered my Country. Judgment of Death against those Soldiers would have been as foul a Stain upon this Country as the Executions of the Quakers or Witches, anciently. As the Evidence was, the Verdict of the Jury was exactly right.
"This however is no Reason why the Town should not call the Action of that Night a Massacre, nor is it any Argument in favour of the Governor or Minister, who caused them to be sent here. But it is the strongest Proofs of the Danger of Standing Armies."
Read me in 2007!
"The View From the Shotglass Floor" Ray Gun Revival, Feb 2007
"Voice of the Spoiler" The Sword Review, June 2007
"Servant of the Manthycore" The Sword Review, July 2007
"Darkling I Listen; and for Many a Time" Fear and Trembling, coming soon!
"Weaving Spiders Come Not Here" The Sword Review, August 2007
"Six Zombies Doing That Mick Jagger Strut" Damned in Dixie, Summer 2007
"Nothing But Our Tears" The Sword Review, September 2007
"Night of Shadows, Night of Knives" Magic and Mechanica, Fall 2007
"The Scarlet Colored Beast" The Sword Review, October 2007
"The Stars by Law, Forbidden" Unparalleled Journeys II, November 2007
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 |  Daniel Carl Jung's Waterboy

       Date Joined Aug 2003 Total Posts : 4515 | Posted 7/26/2007 5:16 PM (GMT -5) |   | Then you understand my point. Good.
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Nathan, I have been understanding your "points" all along, I just don't agree with them.
What's hard to understand?
You are basically recapping what Tony Snow would say on any given morning, after-all. There's nothing in your posts that doesn't seem to trickle down from P. Avenue at some level. Or Fox.
On this one: justice, I am afraid you have no idea what I am talking about. But try this: many of your posts center on the lack of perception and the lack of *justice* that you see determining the poltical ideas and discourse of those many, many people who disagree with your well-trodden points. *You* are feeling a lack of justice.
I wold say my mood is one of humorous satisfaction when it pertains to the Bush admin, I was angry and frustrated before around the year 2000, but I see *justice* being done now, elevates my mood. The "Night and Fog" legislation the neo-cons wanted so bad was ruled down by a high-court, the entire scaffolding upon which they hoped to establish their "100 year" GOP majoirty is as dead as the 3rd Reich which inspired it.
I see plenty of justice. And I sleep very well at night, unencumbered by fears of radical Islamists or of the ghosts of elections or wars-past, present or future. I NEVER supported the invasion of Iraq, never voted for Bush, never believed in the so-called idealogical or strategic basis of the neo-cons adn predicted correctly that they would fall flat.
Count me happy and secure in the knowledge that Justice IS alive and well.
I'd like to see some of these clowns go to prison. But that's just personal because I hate sycophants and jackanapes. Especially ones with intellectual pretension and ignorance combined with hubris.
"Art is the celebration of the ego's destruction."
Daniel | | Back to Top | | |
 |  nathan Sage

       Date Joined Mar 2006 Total Posts : 2176 | Posted 7/26/2007 5:23 PM (GMT -5) | < |
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