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Jordan Lapp
Ebony & Ivory



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   Posted 4/23/2007 8:16 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
nathan said...
 
Jordan I said the disturbing quality of your thought process was its passiviety.
Did that sould like an ad homien attack? I "started it"?
 
 
Ouch! I did get a little defensive there, didn't I? 'Pologies, 'pologies.


Jordan Lapp
 
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nathan
Sage



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   Posted 4/23/2007 8:32 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
No harm no foul. What I write below I write not sharply but teasing.
 
1: you forgot to add a burp in the space-time continuum and prankster ninja's turning my bullets backwards to your scenarios. I think it probable that I could make up a dozen or so fortitious evens just as easily.
 
2: Your view of the thief as a hapless rouge out for the silver and with a heart of gold is never going to be an argument I can buy into Jordan. The person is in your house with criminal intent. You don't give them the benifit of the doubt and gamble that way. You assume he's a Home Invader and proceed accordingly--still a gamble, but look at the starting positions. All this talk of "might" and "could" seems suicidal to me.
 
3. Yes I'd be much better off karate fighting with him because I'm such a badass?
 
4. Jordon Said:The presence of a gun automatically makes what could have been a harmless (albeit scary) situation into a life and death struggle. Why elevate it like that?
 
But I'm not elevating the situation: I automatically assume that if someone has entered my house for criminal intent that it is a life-and-death situation and would try and determine my actions accordingly. I will never, as a baseline for decision making in a crisis, assume, or hope, or gamble that the situation is "harmless."
 
I can honestly see no logical reason to give the intruder such a huge benifit of the doubt.
 
Not giving the intruder the benefit of the doubt I must then defend myself. How should I do so? Even if he's unarmed or armed with something other than a gun I don't want to fight the guy, this isn't a boxing match--the stakes are a little high--, so I'll use my gun. If he's armed then the only chance I have is to be armed also.


VIEW IMAGE
"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
 
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages."

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nathan
Sage



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   Posted 4/23/2007 9:45 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jordon, not to belabor the point but to clarify why I called your viewpoint "passive" and did so not meaning it in the personal.

Look at your construction of the arguments. You give the criminal the superior position on every point. From calling him "helpless" on one hand to having them "take the gun" from you on the other; to plauging the homeowner with a legal firearm as "irresponsible" if he maintains it in a state of readiness, but not noting the irresponsiblity inheirient in breaking into a family dwelling for nefarious purpose all the way to having dogs knocking over a nighstand and a gun going off.

At every turn your logic up-plays the ability of the criminal while down playing the ability of the home owner. This is a strange formation of argument to me: the criminal is good intentioned and supremely dangerous at the same time. The home owner is irresponsible and ineffectual.

I don't even mean the examples in and of themselves, they're the "trees" in the argument while the lopsided piling on you do is the "forrest" that puzzles me.

I on the otherhand assume the criminal is quite capable and advocate treating them with such respect. I just don't cede the point of the home owner being relegated to the defunct position of a Faulty Towers Episode with vast cosmic events conspiring to undermine his every effort.

What's up with that? I'm not attacking you. I assume you don't really lump criminals into a "super-warrior with a heart of gold" class while leaving poor home owners as bumbling incompetents plauged by slapstick comedic errs at every turn--yet the argument kind of plays out that way to my eyes.

Maybe I'm reading it wrong?


VIEW IMAGE
"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
 
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages."

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Xangis
Xenophrenologist



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   Posted 4/23/2007 11:01 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
nathan said...

Why the assumption that a bedside gun is "unresponsible?"
At least you didn't suggest that blunt object or perhaps a knife would be equally as "good" in defense against a firearm.


In my case, a non-gun would be a far better defense.

With a gun, I wouldn't know which end to point at the bad guy and would probably just shoot myself. I do not own nor do I have any desire to own a gun.

I do have a katana by the bedside (which I know how to use), and I'd venture to guess that when pitted against someone carrying a gun in close quarters (indoors) and on with the home terrain advantage (my house) I'd have a pretty good chance of being the one to walk away. Not much danger of accidentally killing myself either.

From what I've heard from my combatant-survivalist friends, the odds actually favor a blade when in close quarters, but I haven't been given any references so it's entirely possible they're just talking out of their arses.

The one time I've had to use the katana it was an effective deterrent (chased off some aggressive/creepy drunks that followed the g/f's friend home from the bar).


Jason Champion
Editor, All Possible Worlds
www.allpossibleworlds.net

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nathan
Sage



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   Posted 4/23/2007 11:09 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

I applaud your skill, agility and personal ferocity--I say quite sincerely.

If you are of the mindset that it is a good idea to bring a knife to a gunfight then by all means I readily recognize your ability to do so.


VIEW IMAGE
"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
 
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages."

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MichaelEhart
Sage



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   Posted 4/23/2007 11:10 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Let's look at the bedside handgun scenario.

Handguns have only two advantages going for them. They are easily concealed and very portable. Rate of fire might be high, but accuracy, especially in low-light and a stress situation is very poor. The burglar might want to carry one, but for home defense I want as short a barrel shotgun as is legal, loaded with #1 birdshot, because at close range it won't matter, and the pellets are less likely to penetrate the drywall into the next room. Shove my wife out of the bed onto the floor, and own the room. Even if I miss, which I won't, it will sound like a howitzer going off, and is likely to spoil his mood, return fire-wise. While he is trying to level his weapon at me with shaking hands, punching pencil diameter lines in the dark, I am pulling back the hammer for barrel two, serene in the confidence that my next shot takes out the other half of the room, with only his scatter shadow to protect what is left of the bedroom furniture.

Plus, my Italian shotgun looks good with our bedroom furniture, and no one ever questions the "decorative" item on the wall.

Take that, Nathan, with your puny handguns.

Yes, Jordan, I do live in the OK Corrall. The rates are good, and the horses make good neighbors :)


"The Scarlet Colored Beast" The Sword Review, September 2007
"Nothing But Our Tears" The Sword Review. August 2007
"Weaving Spiders Come Not Here" The Sword Review, July 2007
"The View From the Shotglass Floor" Ray Gun Revival, coming soon!
"Six Zombies Doing That Mick Jagger Strut" Damned in Dixie, March 2007
"The Death of Number 23" Dark Krypt, Fall 2006
"Servant of the Manthycore" Sword Review, April 2006
"Voice of the Spoiler"  Better Fiction, Spring 2006
"Dancing with the Elder Gods"-- Thirteen Magazine, October 2005
"It's a Living" Byzarium---November 2005
"An Exorcism Straight, Hold the Elvis" The Sword Review, October 2005
Host, 2005 Nebula Awards Live Chat, sff.net
http://mehart.blogspot.com/

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nathan
Sage



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   Posted 4/23/2007 11:12 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Your kung fu is good sir!


VIEW IMAGE
"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
 
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages."

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MichaelEhart
Sage



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   Posted 4/23/2007 11:19 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jason, I used to keep a sword by my bed, too, but I am 51 years old now, and am lazy. No more Toshiro Mifune jumping around for me. I am a man of peace now, and live a quiet life. Any home invader will just have to eat lead, and forgo the more stylish ending I would have provided him in my youth.


"The Scarlet Colored Beast" The Sword Review, September 2007
"Nothing But Our Tears" The Sword Review. August 2007
"Weaving Spiders Come Not Here" The Sword Review, July 2007
"The View From the Shotglass Floor" Ray Gun Revival, coming soon!
"Six Zombies Doing That Mick Jagger Strut" Damned in Dixie, March 2007
"The Death of Number 23" Dark Krypt, Fall 2006
"Servant of the Manthycore" Sword Review, April 2006
"Voice of the Spoiler"  Better Fiction, Spring 2006
"Dancing with the Elder Gods"-- Thirteen Magazine, October 2005
"It's a Living" Byzarium---November 2005
"An Exorcism Straight, Hold the Elvis" The Sword Review, October 2005
Host, 2005 Nebula Awards Live Chat, sff.net
http://mehart.blogspot.com/

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darkbow
Rabbit lord



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   Posted 4/23/2007 11:32 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'll have to go along with Mike about the scattergun. I love handguns for target practice, but in a home-invasion situation my preferred arm would be a coach double-barrel shotgun with birdshot. Fairly short barrel, big area of effect at close range. And I don't have to worry about hitting my neighbors through the walls.

As for a sword in a gunfight? No. No. No. I love swords too, and I've had some training in using them (mostly rapier and broadsword), but even in close quarters I would prefer a firearm over a sword. Yes, push come to shove, I would likely use my bastard sword or maybe the battle axe, but I'll always put my money on the guy with the gun.


www.tyjohnston.blogspot.com
www.thereddoorconcierge.blogspot.com

www.thereddoorconcierge.com

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erazmus
Master



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   Posted 4/24/2007 1:47 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Okay I want to back up just a bit. Home invasion isn't the only self defense senario there is. Here where I live, in Colorado, you occasionally get very different home invasion senarios anyway. Like a full grown mountain lion who has wandered in to your home looking for fido. A .357 magnum definatly beats birdshot for that one, and that has happened a few times this last year here in the Springs.

I have no wish to engage anyone in a knife-fight. The flow-chart doesn't work in my favor, there are three possible outcomes;
1. I cut him up good and escape unharmed.
2. He cuts me up good and I fail to wound him, leaving him to deal with the next memberr of the household while I lay bleeding.
3. We each get cut up good, leaving me crippled or dead.
I lose in two out of three of those. This applys to swords as well. To use them we have to get close to one another, which takes away my advantage of knowing the layout.

A Shotgun is a good choice for home defense in general, though. (I use No. 4 shot, as the FBI does for tacticle purposes. Non-magnum loads will not penetrate two layers of wall-board but has more stopping power than No1.) More important is the willingness to engage an intruder. That is really the hub of the whole arguement.

You either are willing to defend yourself or you aren't. There are no real conditional modifiers to the statement. If you are not willing to take responcibility for your defense in all situations, then you are not willing to defend yourself in any of them. You cannot take on the mantle of defender when you walk through your door and leave it behind when you set out for work the next day. True, you have no special onus to back off or seek to escape when you are inside your own home-- a fact my state allows for under our "make my day" laws ( hate that appellation). But if you expect the authorities to deal with any proffered violence outside of your home, you will not be prepared to deal with it inside your home.

Handguns are a most practicle means of defending oneself in most situations. Last winter a man here in the springs was driving to work on an icey day. He lost control ar an intersection and spun, causing the pick-up behind him to swerve. He ended up on a curb, stalled. The pick-up driver was enraged, his truck in a ditch. He got out of his truck with a baseball bat and charged at the guy as he sat in his car. As it turned out, this was a fifty-seven year old disabled vet facing a twenty-eight year old contruction worker with a club. As the guy got near his door, he pulled his nine and took carefuk aim. The guy took one look and got back in his truck and drove away.

The police were on "cold weather reporting" and took ten minutes to get there (they'd been called by a passing motorist who saw the guy get out with the bat). Do you know how much damage a guy can do with a bat in ten minutes? Even through a windshield? (I'll note they are called windshields, not club-shields). My son was attacked by a bat weilding thug a few weeks ago, one swing broke his arm in three places. He'll be out of work for at least five months.

Unless you are Conan, you don't even want to think about trying to defend yourself with a similar amount of force against an attacker. Usually, they wouldn't be attacking unless they felt they had a desicive edge. I live in one of the most well armed communities I know of, with sixty-five percent gun ownership in a community of nearly four hundred thousand, and we don't have as many shootings per capita as many places that restict guns heavily. We have a must issue policy for concealed carry, which means if you apply, pass the background check and the requird class (held weekly) the sheriff must issue you a concealed carry permit. Thousands have been issued, none have been resinded because of a criminal conviction involving a firearms ( a few from domestic violence convictions and such). This is the wild west here, and I'm safer for it.

Mike


Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Dutchman Rescue"in Continuum SF #6
www.continuumsciencefiction.com/orders.htm

"An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern" in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises:
www.fantasistent.com/books/anthologies/BASH.php

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BethS
Adept

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   Posted 4/24/2007 2:30 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Mike,

Did you hear about the incident where a young rapper named Boonie held up a pizzaria in Oakland? He pulled a gun on the owner, whose wife and three kids were in the shop as well. The owner pulled out a 9mm and blew the guy away. A spokesman for the Oakland police had this to say:

"There is definitely a balance," said Officer Roland Holmgren, department spokesman. "This thing had potential -- who knows where the suspects were going to take the situation? But by no stretch of the imagination are we agreeing with or justifying what the owner did....We're not saying that we want citizens to go out there and arm themselves and take the law into their own hands. We want citizens to be good witnesses, to be good report-takers and to identify suspects."

What the owner did that the police are not agreeing with was defending his life and the lives of his family. How good a report-taker would the owner have been if the criminal had killed him? Maybe Boonie wouldn't have hurt anyone. But maybe he would have. He already had a rap sheet, and one of the offenses was for physical abuse of his girlfriend.

Anyway, I'm appalled at the attitude that says citizens have no right to defend themselves.

I'm so sorry to hear about your son. I hope his recovery is fast and uneventful.

~Beth

 

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MichaelEhart
Sage



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   Posted 4/24/2007 2:36 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
No mountain lions here where we live. Most likely home invasion scenario here is a meth addict who wandered out of bounds. I like #1 bird because there are over 100 pellets as opposed to 21 with #4 buck. Looser pattern, too, for those times when you really need to distribute pain over a wide area. But this is a matter of individual taste in homocidal technique.

In truth home invasion is just not that likely here, though I have lived in places where it was. Happened twice for me, both times when I was living in seedy dives during college. The first time I found myself waking up in my apartment living room, naked, with my target pistol extended while the idiot who had jimmied the crummy door blinked wide-eyed in terror, and stupidly waved the screwdriver he was armed with like it would make him bullet-proof as he backed out of the door. The other time I came out of the shower to find someone going through my wife's dresser. This time I was wearing bib overalls (what I wore as a bathrobe back then--- don't ask). My golf clubs were conveniently by the bathroom door. He jumped up, and blurted "May I help you?" How he didn't know I was in the shower is beyond me. I whacked him a couple of times with my 7-iron (I know, for that close I should have used a chipping wedge, but a warrior uses the tools at hand) to make him behave, then dialed the cops and they came and took him away. He turned out to be harmless, or relatively so, just a panty sniffer, and about half my size, but at the time I felt pretty heroic. Both times I was in my twenties, and both times I was lucky that the invaders were doofy. The first guy was breaking into apartments stealing pot, a pretty good chance at that time and place, but dumb and low level, and I didn't have anything the second guy would have fought for. The first guy could just as easily been a heroin addict who wouldn't even have remembered the next day if he had killed me in my sleep or not, and the second guy could have been a proto-BTK killer.

Mike you are right. The most important thing is a fight of any kind is intent. A guy armed with a putty knife and the will to use it can take a guy with a StreetSweeper if the shotgunner won't shoot. I'd rather have the StreetSweeper, though :)


"The Scarlet Colored Beast" The Sword Review, September 2007
"Nothing But Our Tears" The Sword Review. August 2007
"Weaving Spiders Come Not Here" The Sword Review, July 2007
"The View From the Shotglass Floor" Ray Gun Revival, coming soon!
"Six Zombies Doing That Mick Jagger Strut" Damned in Dixie, March 2007
"The Death of Number 23" Dark Krypt, Fall 2006
"Servant of the Manthycore" Sword Review, April 2006
"Voice of the Spoiler"  Better Fiction, Spring 2006
"Dancing with the Elder Gods"-- Thirteen Magazine, October 2005
"It's a Living" Byzarium---November 2005
"An Exorcism Straight, Hold the Elvis" The Sword Review, October 2005
Host, 2005 Nebula Awards Live Chat, sff.net
http://mehart.blogspot.com/

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MichaelEhart
Sage



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   Posted 4/24/2007 2:37 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
And yeah, what Beth says about your son. We'll put him in our prayers.


"The Scarlet Colored Beast" The Sword Review, September 2007
"Nothing But Our Tears" The Sword Review. August 2007
"Weaving Spiders Come Not Here" The Sword Review, July 2007
"The View From the Shotglass Floor" Ray Gun Revival, coming soon!
"Six Zombies Doing That Mick Jagger Strut" Damned in Dixie, March 2007
"The Death of Number 23" Dark Krypt, Fall 2006
"Servant of the Manthycore" Sword Review, April 2006
"Voice of the Spoiler"  Better Fiction, Spring 2006
"Dancing with the Elder Gods"-- Thirteen Magazine, October 2005
"It's a Living" Byzarium---November 2005
"An Exorcism Straight, Hold the Elvis" The Sword Review, October 2005
Host, 2005 Nebula Awards Live Chat, sff.net
http://mehart.blogspot.com/

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nathan
Sage



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   Posted 4/24/2007 2:47 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
MichaelEhart said...
 I whacked him a couple of times with my 7-iron (I know, for that close I should have used a chipping wedge, but a warrior uses the tools at hand)
rofl hop rofl
 
Part of the problem is the potential threat you face--it directly effects the mindset. I live in Las Vegas. Meth head thrill killing home invaders were an "epidemic" around here awhile ago.
 
Maybe if I lived in London or Copenhagen where it was bumbling pot smokers with no malice I would hold a different opinion (seriously, it's possible). Out here if someone busts the door down, hops my wall or cracks a window I assume its Baghdad and I have the Las Vegas Review Journel stories to prove it.


VIEW IMAGE
"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
 
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages."

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MichaelEhart
Sage



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   Posted 4/24/2007 2:52 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Just for kicks, not advocating, mind you, here is a quote from BartCop, a contrarian liberal blogger from "Knuckledrag" Oklahoma, who is very pro gun, but paints this thought-picture:
 
"Let's say a Wal-Mart has 300 shoppers one day and 20 percent of them are carrying.
Someone on Aisle 2 accidentally fires a shot from a rifle he's buying.
Then someone on Aisle 3 figures it's a robbery so he pulls his gun to shoot the guy on Aisle 2.
But someone on Aisle 5 hears shots, sees the guy on Aisle 3 and drops him.
Then someone on Aisle 7 sees the Aisle 5 guy shooting so he drops him.

Soon, you'd have 60 people with guns, all shooting for 60 crazy reasons."

Sure, ammo is kept separate from firearms, but this is WalMart, remember, who may be paying sub-minimum wages to some illegal who can't even read the rules, much less understand them. Even if the clerk is together enough to shout out "accidental discharge!", in the resulting hubub he is unlikely to be heard.
 
Truth is, enough of my fellow citizens are wankers that I am not all that happy with the idea of a Glock as an everyday casual accessory. For every happy ending story like Mike's about the baseball bat guy there are 20 where Angry Bat Guy was the one with the gun, and Pops ended up dead.
 
Not a debate with any solution, and I am fully aware that I am inconsistant on this one.
 



"The Scarlet Colored Beast" The Sword Review, September 2007
"Nothing But Our Tears" The Sword Review. August 2007
"Weaving Spiders Come Not Here" The Sword Review, July 2007
"The View From the Shotglass Floor" Ray Gun Revival, coming soon!
"Six Zombies Doing That Mick Jagger Strut" Damned in Dixie, March 2007
"The Death of Number 23" Dark Krypt, Fall 2006
"Servant of the Manthycore" Sword Review, April 2006
"Voice of the Spoiler"  Better Fiction, Spring 2006
"Dancing with the Elder Gods"-- Thirteen Magazine, October 2005
"It's a Living" Byzarium---November 2005
"An Exorcism Straight, Hold the Elvis" The Sword Review, October 2005
Host, 2005 Nebula Awards Live Chat, sff.net
http://mehart.blogspot.com/

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erazmus
Master



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   Posted 4/24/2007 3:44 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Well, yeah, we had angry gun guy a couple of years ago. He's on death row now.

The sixty seconds at Wal-Mart senario seems a little contrived for me. What most CCP holders seem to do in such a situation here is hit the deck, draw their piece and look for the guy shouting for everybody to put their hands down.
That was how it played out at the last grocery store robbery in town that I read about. The armed guard (my company but I have not met the guy) and three citizens threw down on the two (out of town, gang affiliated) would be robbers, who surrendered without any additional shots. Sure, it could have been a bloodbath, but that is true when ever someone decides to pull a pulp-fiction style robbery, whether or not anyone else deals themsleves in.

The question is, is that better than letting them leave with the money and opening up the possibility they will shoot someone, the probability that the local PD will engage in a high speed pursuit that may travel through residential neighborhoods or school zones, that they could get away and decide that this is a pretty easy way to make a living.

I know how I want to live and what kind of world I want to live in.

Mike


Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Dutchman Rescue"in Continuum SF #6
www.continuumsciencefiction.com/orders.htm

"An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern" in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises:
www.fantasistent.com/books/anthologies/BASH.php

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MichaelEhart
Sage



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   Posted 4/24/2007 3:51 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Oh clearly Mike. When the guy with the gun asks me to kneel in a line with the other convenience store shoppers, I will assume time is up and do my best to spoil his day however possible. Same with the "get in the car" line. Only reason for that is to take me someplace where murder is less public. No way.


"The Scarlet Colored Beast" The Sword Review, September 2007
"Nothing But Our Tears" The Sword Review. August 2007
"Weaving Spiders Come Not Here" The Sword Review, July 2007
"The View From the Shotglass Floor" Ray Gun Revival, coming soon!
"Six Zombies Doing That Mick Jagger Strut" Damned in Dixie, March 2007
"The Death of Number 23" Dark Krypt, Fall 2006
"Servant of the Manthycore" Sword Review, April 2006
"Voice of the Spoiler"  Better Fiction, Spring 2006
"Dancing with the Elder Gods"-- Thirteen Magazine, October 2005
"It's a Living" Byzarium---November 2005
"An Exorcism Straight, Hold the Elvis" The Sword Review, October 2005
Host, 2005 Nebula Awards Live Chat, sff.net
http://mehart.blogspot.com/

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Xangis
Xenophrenologist



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   Posted 4/24/2007 5:04 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I suppose where you live is a pretty big factor in the threats you're likely to deal with. Where I am the most likely encounter is an ornery drunk. You're not likely to get into too much danger here unless you're dealing drugs or picking fights. I couldn't imagine having to worry about whacked out meth heads, but all in all midwestern suburbia is pretty tame.

I did wake up to some pounding on the door over the summer and was worried I'd have to deal with some sort of "incident". Turns out it was the cop who lives across the street trying to wake me up at 3am because my detached garage was extremely on fire. Lost the whole garage and 2 cars in the deal (thank you power lines, really nice of you to **** up right above my garage.) The house wasn't damaged, but it was nice to see the neighbors had our backs.

Turned out to be kind of a neighborhood campfire gathering. Nothing like meeting neighbors over a bonfire, although the smell of burning tires isn't quite the same as the scent of a nice roasted pig.


Jason Champion
Editor, All Possible Worlds
www.allpossibleworlds.net

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nathan
Sage



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   Posted 4/25/2007 4:03 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

In addition to foundational mentality about self-defense and nature of threats I kind of suspect an additional layer of misunderstanding may be folded into all this: ignorance of firearms themselves. If "ignorance" can be used in its strictest definition and not seen as ad homien perjorgative.

People who lack any practical expeirence with firearms often (in my anecdotal experience) seem to attribut strange physics defying charateristics to guns, inanimat objects, that they don't possess.

Sometimes it seems like people who've never handled guns think of them as ticking bombs, like an old case of TNT sweating in jungle heat, just waiting to go BOOM without provication. Or that the slighest jolt or blunt impact is likely to cause a round in a chamber to ignite (often with unfailing accuracy). Or that it will act like the AI in 2001, just waiting to strike the unwary. The mindset is often almost superstitious, IMO only.

My wife, a mensa member, falls in this category. My arguments are hypocritical as my pistol is in a locked case at the top back of my closet at the moment due to her own fear--it is useless in the advent of an emergency.

For awhile I kept my pistol bedside during the night and up in the closet during the day. I took three procations against the accidental discharge. I never had a round waiting in the chamber. I kept the magazine out. I kept it on safe.

My 6 year old was in 113% for size last physical. He's a tall kid with big hands. Despite this it won't be another year until I feel he could jack the slide and chamber a round even if I kept a magazine in the butt-well.

Even if he knew to do so, which he doesn't.

I'm not sure the sharp little guy has a concept of red-for-dead on the Safety button so even if he managed to jack the slide without mischambering the round he wouldn't know to disengage the safey--or know to slide the magazine home though I bet he could figure that out.

Yet I feed the magazine, chamber a round and push the safety off in under 5 seconds--and I'm hardly a gunslinger. For home defense I would perfer the pistol remain with a round unchambered but the magazine in the butt. The sound of round jacking alone is a potent warning (though it pales when compared to the sound a pump action shotgun)--but making accidental discharge impossible.

I grew up rural with guns, but even more than that it was my time in the Army that convinced me that accidental discharges are a difficult process. Not because I'm some kind of he-man trained killer but because I'm clumsy.

While holding assault rifles and machine guns with chambered rounds and live saftey I have fallen down a ravine, through a window, and onto an asphalt road. Nothing to be proud of turn but in each case I dropped the Hot Weapon hard and it failed to go off, much less kill. This doesn't mean it can't ever happen--just that I think the "drop the gun and be killed" rationale is a little statistically hysterical.

Ocman's razor tells us that (of course) if you don't have a gun to begin with you (or your child) will never have a gun accident. Yet on a risk-reward continuum I put guns in the house above having a pool.

I don't consider myself particularly misguided or moronic for reaching this conclusion--but then I wouldn't would I :-) ?

My premise is simply. People who've been around guns Respect them. People who are ignorant (by practical experience I stress) of guns tend to Fear them.


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"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
 
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages."

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Jeff Stehman
Sage

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   Posted 4/25/2007 4:24 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
nathan said...
My premise is simply. People who've been around guns Respect them. People who are ignorant (by practical experience I stress) of guns tend to Fear them.

I've found this to be the case with most wild preditors, poisonous critters, and natural disasters. People often fear the ones they're not familiar with, but those they've lived with are no big deal as long as standard precautions are taken.


--Jeff Stehman

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nathan
Sage



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   Posted 4/26/2007 3:12 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Read this article link about the memorial at VT. Really troubled by it. But I'm also troubled by how troubled by it I am.

On one hand it has an aspect than can be construed as healthy about it--on the other the moral equivlancy mindset that equates perpetraters to the same moral status as victims is one I think is terribly misguided and not terribly enlightened at all.

I think the girl's intentions were in the right place though my inital reaction was somewhat angry.


VIEW IMAGE
"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
 
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages."

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