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| SFReader Forums > The Real World > World Events > Victory in Iraq | Forum Quick Jump
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Scott M. Sandridge
Former King of Shameless Plugs
      
Date Joined Dec 2005
Total Posts : 714
| Posted 1/16/2006 8:07 AM (GMT -5) |   | quote:
Originally posted by MichaelEhart
I work professionally in politics---- what I was refering to was that nearly every fund raising letter the R's sent out in 2004 mentioned Hillary, even though she wasn't running, and in fact 2 weeks before the convention, the RNC sent out a letter claiming that kerry was going to step down to defer to Hillary. My friends on the professional political GOP side (we all talk to each other, it is a lonely profession) tell me that by including Hillary's name on a mailer they can raise 10-15% more money. BTW the demon Hillary is an invention of the right, check out her voting record as a senator, not very liberal at all. With the lefties I know, she is pretty darn unpopular.
Her voting record before or after she started gazing her eyes at the White House (i.e. early to mid-2005)?
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And the GOP will not nominate a black woman for president in my lifetime.
And the Dems will? Doubtful. It would countermind the "victimization" plantation they've been running so successfully.
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Leiberman has been offered a position in the Bush administration, and has seriously considered it. I am not surprised you would vote for him, most R's would, except that there is a problem with his heritage that would stop a lot of voters in the south.
I'm from the south, born in Arkansas and raised on the Kentucky/Tennessee border. We're about as anti-Jew as we are anti-Cherokee. And since most of us are a quarter or more Cherokee then that would make us anti-parts-of-ourselves if we were.
In fact, I observe more prejudice, sexism, and racism here up north in a day then I ever observed down south in a year. And the people down south are more friendly by far.
That, and they don't talk as funny, either.
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I love the "Dems are big losers" meme, btw--- 51% of the vote for an incumbent is lousy, and that is all Bush got against a weak candidate in the middle of a war.
Most of the people I know around here who voted for Kerry, only voted for him because they were told that Bush was going to enact the draft. That, and some of them didn't even know who Abraham Lincoln was. But I blame that last part on the screwed up school system. Another Kerry voter I know once stated proudly that she never, ever reads. And several others only voted for Kerry because their unions told them to (my union got a little miffed at me when I told them I'd vote for Yosemite Sam before I ever voted for Kerry). And then there were the ones who only voted for Kerry because their "friends say he's cool."
So, yeah, I can see why Bush only got 51% of the vote in a country where only 30% bothered to vote at all while many of whom used the "mean looks from lawyers" excuse to not vote. Oh, did I also mention its a country where 65% of the population have never read a single book after leaving high school (and some likely hadn't read any books then, either). As far as the few smart ones who voted for Kerry, well, everybody gets fooled at least once: they thought he was the lesser of two evils.
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In Washington state, where I live the dems picked up 6 seats in the state house, and retained the senate. Both of our senators and our governor are dems.
Good. Many Dems work great at the state and local levels. Gov. Richardson from New Mexico for example.
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And the "screamer"? He raised a record amount of money last year, and unlike Terry Mac, leaves a comparable amount in the states where he raises it. Dean has been a huge success as a party chair.
I suppose you won't be surprised when I say I'm not surprised.
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MichaelEhart
Sage
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 2352
| Posted 1/16/2006 8:17 AM (GMT -5) | | Beth---
Only white people think there is an end to racsim in this country--- my wife is black, and we see it every day.
Since Goldwater, the Republicans have used something called "the southern strategy" --- look it up. It panders to the large chunk of the Republican party that is racist--- they are there, and you know it. They used to be Democrats until the Civil Rights act, now they are yours. If ever you nominate a black woman, they will either vote for the other side, or simply not vote at all. And then they will be our problem again.
I am not saying you are--- you are too smart for that.
There is not one Black Republican member of Congress. Not one. Baby steps, first.
"Dancing with the Elder Gods"-- Thirteen Magazine, October
"It's a Living" Byzarium---November
"Voice of the Spoiler" and "An Exorcism Straight, Hold the Elvis" The Sword Review, October
"Oathbreaker" Mythica Vault
Host, 2005 Nebula Awards Live Chat, sff.net
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MichaelEhart
Sage
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 2352
| Posted 1/16/2006 8:25 AM (GMT -5) | | wow, first it ate my post, then it posted both tries. Sorry for the two versions, but see the differences in the two? Good example for a discussion on style, no?
Scott, I really mean her whole record. Look it up, she has even co-sponsered a bill with Bill Frist, the Republican Majority Leader.
"Dancing with the Elder Gods"-- Thirteen Magazine, October
"It's a Living" Byzarium---November
"Voice of the Spoiler" and "An Exorcism Straight, Hold the Elvis" The Sword Review, October
"Oathbreaker" Mythica Vault
Host, 2005 Nebula Awards Live Chat, sff.net
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Jeff Stehman
Sage
Date Joined Mar 2005
Total Posts : 1224
| Posted 1/16/2006 8:48 AM (GMT -5) | | quote:
Originally posted by Scott M. Sandridge
Man, next time remind me to raise only one point. Trying to keep them all on track is starting to wrack my brain.
Why do you think I only replied to one of the eighteen points? :D
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All my points regarding the after-affects of going into Iraq addresses that one singular point of "ingenious strategy, if unintentional".
Then I misunderstood, and that line wasn't about the flypaper strategy. End of debate. However, in my defense, it still looks like that's what you were saying.
As for Rice, I don't believe she'll be nominated, and I don't believe she'd stand a chance if she was. However, I do believe our first black president will be a conservative, and when the GOP goes that route, I don't think they'll be too worried about the southern strategy. A sensible, conservative black candidate with any charisma would get most of the black vote, plus a lot of support from the moderate left, just because.
Besides, it's not just the South. I live about as far north as you can get in the continental US, and the hatred of blacks is unbelievable in some cirlces up here--and I've lived in the South. The only reason it's not usually seen is because so few black people live here.
--Jeff Stehman | | Back to Top | | |
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MichaelEhart
Sage
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 2352
| Posted 1/16/2006 8:54 AM (GMT -5) | | Yes Jeff, I agree. The old saw is true. A southern racist doesn't care how close they get, so long as they don't get as high. A northern racist doesn't care how high they get, just so long as they are not close.
And racism is not a party affiliation issue, it is just that, right now, conservatism has a stong streak of it, and the ultra right is running the show.
"Dancing with the Elder Gods"-- Thirteen Magazine, October
"It's a Living" Byzarium---November
"Voice of the Spoiler" and "An Exorcism Straight, Hold the Elvis" The Sword Review, October
"Oathbreaker" Mythica Vault
Host, 2005 Nebula Awards Live Chat, sff.net
http://mehart.blogspot.com/ | | Back to Top | | |
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BethS
Adept
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 751
| Posted 1/16/2006 10:01 AM (GMT -5) | | Daniel,
If I did not have a looming deadline for LOS II and only a partially written story (can you say "panic"?), I'd happily take the time to eviscerate your arguments. [:D] Since I have been a political conservative for about twenty years now, I figure I'm probably more qualified to explain conservatism than anyone who is looking in from the outside, as it were.
Two things I will comment on, though.
One--I didn't say that racism, classicism, and chauvinism are all sins of the past. One finds evidence of them in all societies and in all political parties. Some places they are more overt; elsewhere they are subtle and hidden. But they will continue to exist among individuals as long as humanity exists.
However, the modern Republican party, as an entity, does not in any way endorse or promote them, not even secretly.
Two--to say that those who oppose abortion are "anti-women" is...not well thought out. At the very least, it ignores the fact that abortion itself accounts for the deaths of far more females than any back-alley abortion industry ever could. When you look at the number of abortions that have been performed in the US since 1973, they average about 1.3 million a year. (That's conservative. I have seen higher estimates.)
Altogether, that's roughly 40 million (probably more) human lives, half of them female, that have been terminated in the name of choice. Obviously, those 20- or so million aborted baby girls, having been deprived of their own fundamental right to live, will never grow up to make any kind of choice. This is not rhetoric; it's fact. A very sobering fact that I believe everyone should face and accept. It would behoove all of us to take a real close look at why we are, as a nation, OK with committing genocide on the next generation.
But then, it also pays to remember that legalized abortion on demand was decided by the Supreme Court, bypassing both the legislative process and/or direct referendum at the ballot box. We the people were not given a choice about choice. Interesting little irony, that.
Beth
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BethS
Adept
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 751
| Posted 1/16/2006 10:06 AM (GMT -5) | | quote:
Originally posted by MichaelEhart
the ultra right is running the show.
This is just so not true.
The ultra right wishes they were running the show, no doubt. But trust me, they're not (thank God). Not even close.
Beth | | Back to Top | | |
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MichaelEhart
Sage
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 2352
| Posted 1/16/2006 11:07 AM (GMT -5) | | Please go here:
http://www.newamericancentury.org/
Look who belongs to this ultra-right organization. Look them up on wikipedia.
Members include:
Elliott Abrams, National Security Council Representative for Middle Eastern Affairs President of the Ethics and Public Policy Center
Richard Armitage, Department of State (2001-2005) Deputy Secretary of State
John R. Bolton, Department of State U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations Previously served as Undersecretary for Arms Control and International Security Affairs in the first administration of GWB.
Richard Cheney, Bush Administration Vice President PNAC founder
Seth Cropsey, Voice of America Director of the International Broadcasting Bureau
Paula Dobriansky, Department of State Undersecretary of State for Global Affairs
Francis Fukuyama, President's Council on Bioethics Council Member Professor of International Political Economy at Johns Hopkins University
Bruce Jackson, U.S. Committee on NATO President
Zalmay Khalilzad, U.S. Embassy Baghdad, Iraq U.S.Ambassador to Iraq Previously served as U.S. Ambassador to Afghanistan from November 2003 to June 2005
Lewis Libby, Bush Administration Chief of Staff for the Vice President Indicted by Grand Jury on charges of Obstruction of Justice, False Statements and Perjury and resigned October 28, 2005.
Peter W. Rodman, Department of Defense Assistant Secretary of Defense for International Security
Donald Rumsfeld, Department of Defense Secretary of Defense PNAC founder and previously Chairman of the Board of Gilead Sciences Developer of Tamiflu
Randy Scheunemann, U.S. Committee on NATO, Project on Transitional Democracies, International Republican Institute Member Founded the Committee for the Liberation of Iraq.
Paul Wolfowitz, World Bank President Deputy Secretary of Defense, 2001-2005
Dov S. Zakheim, Department of Defense Comptroller
Robert B. Zoellick, Department of State Deputy Secretary of State Office of the United States Trade Representative (2001-2005)
Other members:
Gary Bauer, former presidential candidate, president of American Values
William J. Bennett, former Secretary of Education and Drug Czar, co-founder of Empower America, author of the Book of Virtues
Ellen Bork, deputy director of PNAC, and wife of failed Reagan Supreme Court nominee Robert Bork
Rudy Boschwitz, former US Senator from Minnesota
Jeb Bush, governor of Florida
Eliot A. Cohen, professor of strategic studies at Johns Hopkins University
Thomas Donnelly, director of communications, Lockheed Martin
Steve Forbes, multi-billionaire publisher of Forbes Magazine, former presidential candidate
Aaron Friedberg, director of the Center of International Studies
Frank Gaffney, columnist, founder of Center for Security Policy
Reuel Marc Gerecht, director of the Middle East Initiative
Fred Ikle, Center for Strategic and International Studies
Donald Kagan, Yale University professor, conservative columnist with various State Department ties
Just saying it ain't so, don't make it that way.
"Dancing with the Elder Gods"-- Thirteen Magazine, October
"It's a Living" Byzarium---November
"Voice of the Spoiler" and "An Exorcism Straight, Hold the Elvis" The Sword Review, October
"Oathbreaker" Mythica Vault
Host, 2005 Nebula Awards Live Chat, sff.net
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Daniel
Carl Jung's Waterboy
Date Joined Aug 2003
Total Posts : 4515
| Posted 1/16/2006 12:08 PM (GMT -5) | | But they will continue to exist among individuals as long as humanity exists.
***
See why I call certain forms of political conservatism "retrograde?" How about cynical, as well?
I don't agree with your statement myself, personally, but certainly the implications go beyond mere politics....
I, too, have many looming deadlines ;-) or I'd explain why I think its just this time of cynicism (which implies exploitation: things won't get better why not take advantage of what they are?) that is strangling political conservatives at the moment.
I'm not sure you need edify me on political conservativism, I know history and politics pretty well. I'd be happy to hear what you have to say, and I'm quite sure I wouldn't feel eviscerated, you needn't worry there. [:)]
Daniel
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Jeff Stehman
Sage
Date Joined Mar 2005
Total Posts : 1224
| Posted 1/16/2006 12:53 PM (GMT -5) | | Michael, your list looks more neo-con than ultra con. I tend to agree with what Ron Paul once said on the House floor: neo-cons combine the worst of the left and the worst of the right. Real conservatives they're not.
--Jeff Stehman | | Back to Top | | |
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Scott M. Sandridge
Former King of Shameless Plugs
Date Joined Dec 2005
Total Posts : 714
| Posted 1/16/2006 2:40 PM (GMT -5) | | quote:
Originally posted by Jeff Stehman
quote:
Originally posted by Scott M. Sandridge
Man, next time remind me to raise only one point. Trying to keep them all on track is starting to wrack my brain.
Why do you think I only replied to one of the eighteen points? :D
I didn't. I was talking, er writing, about me trying to keep track of all the points I've opened on this blasted thread.
But we'll go ahead and agree to disagree or disagree to agree or whatever the heck happened and leave it there. I think we all got stories to write, or something. Anyway. It's been fun.
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Scott M. Sandridge
Former King of Shameless Plugs
Date Joined Dec 2005
Total Posts : 714
| Posted 1/16/2006 3:21 PM (GMT -5) | | quote:
Originally posted by Daniel
The myth that Republicans are anti-Black, anti-Jew, anti- any minority is just that: a tired old myth.
***
No, the myth that racism, classicism and chauvanism are "things of the past" is what's really tired.
Racism: That reminds me of a jok I once told a couple friends of mine when they asked my why I had shaved my head (it's all grown back now). It went a little something like this:
"Well, y'know, the Cherokee in me went on a warpath and scalped the first white man he saw. Unfortunately, I was looking in the mirror at that time."
I don't know how it is in other places but down here in the gutter where we bottom-feeders dwell there is no "racism" because their are no "races". We're all a bunch of mixed mutts.
Classicism: You're right. It's getting out of hand. My fellow poor folk are ready to chase me down with pitchforks and torches just for wanting to get rich. Of course, I still get a big laugh out of the ones that make 3 or more times what I make in a year complain about how horrible their finances are. Then they ask me how I do so well with what little I make, but when I answer them with "Simple, I don't spend as much" they get all ticked off for some strange reason.
Yeah, something needs to be done about that.
And chauvanism: Yeah, something needs to be done about that, too. Heck, it's getting to where you're not even allowed to be male anymore! Where I live, something as innocent as asking for a phone number is enough to get a Sexual Harassment charge on you. No joke. It happened to a friend of mine.
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"Pro-life" positions are really just "anti-woman" positions in disguise
Really? I'll be sure to tell an old female friend of mine that: the one who's entire life got devastated after her mother forced her to have an abortion. I'm sure she'll be real pleased to hear it.
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Anyone who thinks we live in an egalitarian society is beyond naive.
I don't think we live in an egalitarian society. I think we live in freakin' Communist Russia!
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stereotyping of african americans in media
Yeah, I think that "Gangsta'" rap on MTV sucks, too.
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But no-one will convince me that the Rep party doesn't bear responsibilty for its retrograde vision of women, minorities, and economics.
Ok, I won't try then.
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MichaelEhart
Sage
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 2352
| Posted 1/16/2006 3:56 PM (GMT -5) | | LOL this has been fun. I am glad to know that I am not the only one who has been blowing off deadlines to play in this sandbox :)
"Dancing with the Elder Gods"-- Thirteen Magazine, October
"It's a Living" Byzarium---November
"Voice of the Spoiler" and "An Exorcism Straight, Hold the Elvis" The Sword Review, October
"Oathbreaker" Mythica Vault
Host, 2005 Nebula Awards Live Chat, sff.net
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Jeff Stehman
Sage
Date Joined Mar 2005
Total Posts : 1224
| Posted 1/16/2006 6:56 PM (GMT -5) | | quote:
Originally posted by Scott M. Sandridge
I think we all got stories to write, or something. Anyway. It's been fun.
I put the finishing touches on one yesterday, so I'm taking a day off. Let's argue!!! :)
--Jeff Stehman | | Back to Top | | |
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Scott M. Sandridge
Former King of Shameless Plugs
Date Joined Dec 2005
Total Posts : 714
| Posted 1/17/2006 12:39 AM (GMT -5) | | quote:
Originally posted by MichaelEhart
Scott, I really mean her whole record. Look it up, she has even co-sponsered a bill with Bill Frist, the Republican Majority Leader.
That's why she scares me so much. She's too damn good at politics. But then again, if I absolutely had no other choice than to choose Kerry or Hillary (assuming the GOP doesn't have anyone better), I'd prefer Hillory over Kerry any day of the week. Or I might start voting Civil Libertarian next time around, who I think would make a far more effective counterweight against the Repubs than the Dems can be.
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Scott M. Sandridge
Former King of Shameless Plugs
Date Joined Dec 2005
Total Posts : 714
| Posted 1/17/2006 12:43 AM (GMT -5) | | quote:
Originally posted by Jeff Stehman
As for Rice, I don't believe she'll be nominated, and I don't believe she'd stand a chance if she was. However, I do believe our first black president will be a conservative, and when the GOP goes that route, I don't think they'll be too worried about the southern strategy. A sensible, conservative black candidate with any charisma would get most of the black vote, plus a lot of support from the moderate left, just because.
Besides, it's not just the South. I live about as far north as you can get in the continental US, and the hatred of blacks is unbelievable in some cirlces up here--and I've lived in the South. The only reason it's not usually seen is because so few black people live here.
Uh, I think we just agreed on something. Let me reread it. Uh, yeah. I agree. Well, except the part about rice, of course. [;)]
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Jeff Stehman
Sage
Date Joined Mar 2005
Total Posts : 1224
| Posted 1/17/2006 5:35 AM (GMT -5) | | And that surprises you? I haven't written enough on politics here for you to safely make assumptions about where I stand.
--Jeff Stehman | | Back to Top | | |
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BethS
Adept
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 751
| Posted 1/17/2006 6:59 AM (GMT -5) | | quote:
Originally posted by Daniel
I'm quite sure I wouldn't feel eviscerated
Naturally not. But I would get such satisfaction out of believing myself successful with the scalpel. LOL.
Beth | | Back to Top | | |
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Scott M. Sandridge
Former King of Shameless Plugs
Date Joined Dec 2005
Total Posts : 714
| Posted 1/17/2006 9:43 AM (GMT -5) | | quote:
Originally posted by Jeff Stehman
And that surprises you? I haven't written enough on politics here for you to safely make assumptions about where I stand.
Hey! You're the one who said "Let's argue!" And here I was all prepared to argue, and you go and leave me with little or nothing to argue on. Sheesh!
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Scott M. Sandridge
Former King of Shameless Plugs
Date Joined Dec 2005
Total Posts : 714
| Posted 1/17/2006 9:45 AM (GMT -5) | | Wow. 68 replies and 543 reads. This thread's getting popular.
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Jeff Stehman
Sage
Date Joined Mar 2005
Total Posts : 1224
| Posted 1/17/2006 11:29 AM (GMT -5) | | If you'd like, we could revisit your uninformed comments regarding Exxon. ;-)
--Jeff Stehman | | Back to Top | | |
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Scott M. Sandridge
Former King of Shameless Plugs
Date Joined Dec 2005
Total Posts : 714
| Posted 1/18/2006 12:40 AM (GMT -5) | | quote:
Originally posted by Jeff Stehman
If you'd like, we could revisit your uninformed comments regarding Exxon. ;-)
--Jeff Stehman
Comments? What comments? [;)]
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Jeff Stehman
Sage
Date Joined Mar 2005
Total Posts : 1224
| Posted 1/18/2006 6:51 AM (GMT -5) | | You said they price gouged. I disagree.
--Jeff Stehman | | Back to Top | | |
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Raph
Stubborn Scholar
Date Joined Oct 2004
Total Posts : 263
| Posted 1/18/2006 11:34 AM (GMT -5) | | Scott,
quote:
Dismantle the Nanny State. No more deficit. Also no more expecting help from a government that we all know was never designed to be efficient in that manner in the first place.
Which "Nanny State" do you mean? The one that bails out billion-dollar corporations, who then turn around and lay off thousands of workers anyway(while still paying their executives millions)? Or the one that cuts health-care benefits to seniors and people who work for a living and are just getting by (because they make "too much")?
The system is designed to keep poor people right where they're at. The minute anyone tries to better themselves or improve their station in life, they get screwed, losing access to affordable health care, day care, etc. No wonder many of them give up trying.
If you really want to erase the deficit, here's just a couple of things that would actually make sense.
1. Have the government stay out of the buisness of big buisness. If a major corporation fails, it's because they're not doing something right. If there's a need for the goods or services that they provide, it will quickly be filled by another company, and maybe they'll do it better.
2. Legalize marajuana. Marajuana is far less dangerous than alcohol, and if it's legal, it's taxable. It also would have the added benefit of taking hundreds of millions of dollars (probably a conservative estimate) out of the hands of the drug cartels.
Just these two things alone would provide plenty of money for some type of universal health care, which most of the civilized nations provide. The US is one of the few countries that still feels that because health care is something that is a basic neccesity, it's okay to make an outrageous profit fr | |
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