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| SFReader Forums > The Real World > World Events > Victory in Iraq | Forum Quick Jump
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Daniel
Carl Jung's Waterboy
      
Date Joined Aug 2003
Total Posts : 4515
| Posted 11/30/2005 2:28 AM (GMT -5) |   | From an AP article on the Bush admin's new "offensive" strategy for dealing with anti-war opposition:
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Facing criticism and impatience about the conflict, Bush went on the offensive with the release of a 35-page plan titled "Our National Strategy for Victory in Iraq."
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Wow, even to me, a-dyed-in-the-wool anti-Bush administration type guy, the language here seems to be eerily reminiscent of Hitler and Goebbels' agit-prop let loose near the end of WW2.
If it wasn't for the economy, the environment, the war, rising gas prices, international terrorism, North Korea, the energy commission, the 9-11 hearings, the Scooter Libby indictments, the ongoing probe of Rove and Cheney, the declining faith and trust in the US goverment by its own citizens and the world at large, the spread of WMD, Abu Ghraib, Chalabi, the ruinous state of the public school system, a record deficeit and the senate majority leader being under investigation for racketeering, I'd say this administration has really lived up to its promises to bring "honor and dignity" back to the White House.
Daniel
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Christopher_Heath
Eternal Champion
Date Joined Oct 2005
Total Posts : 1156
| Posted 11/30/2005 3:31 AM (GMT -5) | | | Suddenly a blow job in the oval office doesn't seem half bad. | | Back to Top | | |
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EdMcfadden
Neophyte
Date Joined Sep 2004
Total Posts : 103
| Posted 11/30/2005 4:32 AM (GMT -5) | | | Someone needs to give Bush a blow job. Then we can impeach him. Plus, maybe he'll chill out a bit. Come on Laura! | | Back to Top | | |
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Rob Santa
Sage
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 1485
| Posted 11/30/2005 5:22 AM (GMT -5) | | Honestly, you'd thinking having Dick and Bush in the Executive Office there'd be a little more of that going on. [:D]
Rob Santa | | Back to Top | | |
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Daniel
Carl Jung's Waterboy
Date Joined Aug 2003
Total Posts : 4515
| Posted 11/30/2005 9:34 AM (GMT -5) | | Man, I'm laughing so hard I can't see straight. I came in spoiling for a fight and ... you guys turned up funny.
I guess it's better to laugh than cry.
Daniel
www.pitchblackbooks.com | | Back to Top | | |
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UnclePete
Weasel Overlord
Date Joined Dec 2004
Total Posts : 311
| Posted 11/30/2005 11:42 AM (GMT -5) | | Daniel, let's not forget cronism and the latest black eye for the Republicans -- not directly linked to Bush, but certainly not good for the party:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051128/pl_nm/crime_cunningham_dc_8
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"The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers." --Thomas Jefferson
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Daniel
Carl Jung's Waterboy
Date Joined Aug 2003
Total Posts : 4515
| Posted 11/30/2005 11:52 AM (GMT -5) | | Pete, hadn't seen that one yet.
Can we have the mid-term elections NOW?
Daniel
www.pitchblackbooks.com | | Back to Top | | |
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UnclePete
Weasel Overlord
Date Joined Dec 2004
Total Posts : 311
| Posted 11/30/2005 12:16 PM (GMT -5) | | The latest on that one, from some of my favourite comic guys.
Auth:
Danziger:
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"The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers." --Thomas Jefferson
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MichaelEhart
Sage
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 2352
| Posted 11/30/2005 2:08 PM (GMT -5) | | Still pretty much under the radar, but Scanlon, who used to work for Delay, has just turned state's evidence in the Abramoff investigation--- the level of corruption there is stunning, and reaches into the Republican establishment in nearly every state. There is something for everyone in this scandal---- bribes for tribal gaming, fraud, mob rub-outs, and out-and-out statements by the principals that for x number of dollars, they could get you the vote you needed for your pet project--- i.e. "bribery"--- at least six members of congress, maybe up to a dozen or more, are facing jail time. And most of them have an R after their name.
I think it was Haldeman, who said that the Nixon team came in with high ideals and a zeal to do things right, and in just 3 short years they were corrupted.
Lots of these guys came in with presidential pardons from the LAST Bush administration.
"Dancing with the Elder Gods"-- Thirteen Magazine, October
"It's a Living" Byzarium---Now Appearing!
"Voice of the Spoiler" and "An Exorcism Straight, Hold the Elvis" The Sword Review, October
"Oathbreaker" Mythica Vault
Host, 2005 Nebula Awards Live Chat, sff.net
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MichaelEhart
Sage
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 2352
| Posted 11/30/2005 2:12 PM (GMT -5) | | Oh, and from listening to Bush's "major Iraq policy speech" today, it appears that his plan for Iraq is to start developing a plan. Whew! Wonder why someone didn't already think of that one!
Sadly, whatever plan they come up with for exiting, it will most likely be handled with the same level of competance that they have handled the war so far--- which is to say they will follow the Katrina model.
These guys couldn't organize a sandwich.
"Dancing with the Elder Gods"-- Thirteen Magazine, October
"It's a Living" Byzarium---Now Appearing!
"Voice of the Spoiler" and "An Exorcism Straight, Hold the Elvis" The Sword Review, October
"Oathbreaker" Mythica Vault
Host, 2005 Nebula Awards Live Chat, sff.net
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UnclePete
Weasel Overlord
Date Joined Dec 2004
Total Posts : 311
| Posted 11/30/2005 3:31 PM (GMT -5) | | "These guys couldn't organize a sandwich."
HAHAHAHAHAHA! Maybe they'll learn how in jail. oops - was that out loud?
____________
"The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers." --Thomas Jefferson
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Daniel
Carl Jung's Waterboy
Date Joined Aug 2003
Total Posts : 4515
| Posted 11/30/2005 5:37 PM (GMT -5) | | These guys couldn't organize a sandwich.
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No, but they steadfastly maintain that they can successfully invade and occupy one....
Daniel
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Daniel
Carl Jung's Waterboy
Date Joined Aug 2003
Total Posts : 4515
| Posted 12/1/2005 6:10 AM (GMT -5) | | Did anyone see Senator Warner on "Hardball" last night? He was comparing "W" to Truman!? and also getting "on message" so far as the Bush cabal's latest watchword for Iraq. "Stay the course. Victory at any cost."
It makes me feel a little sick to see all of these old white men like Cheney, Bush, Rumsfield, Wolfiwitz, Libby, Kristol, Warner, etc rave on for the past 2 years about "staying the course," and not backing down from car-bombers and insurgents. Meanwhile, they are making personal fortunes off the war (or hoping to) and not sending anyone they love to fight and die in Falluja or Mosul or Baghdad.
I'm tired of seeing the armed forces take the fall for the stupidity and hubris of this administration. They sent them over there under-equiped and under-staffed, they stuck the *army* with responsiblity for Abu Ghraib, they are bold-faced *lying* about their committment to supporting the troops in Iraq -- they lost the confidence of the actual military minds and generals (and rightly so) long ago, most of them *before* the invasion. They won't run, but they don't know how to fight.
And meanwhile, kids are dying everyday over there. And not just Americans -- there have been over 100,000 Iraqi casualties since the war began. How many were babies? How many were supporters of the American invasion? The bombs kill them all alike.
Daniel
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PaulMc
Adept
Date Joined May 2005
Total Posts : 992
| Posted 12/1/2005 6:16 AM (GMT -5) | | Well, this is my favorite quote of the week.
"We know a great deal more about bin Laden, Zarqawi and [bin Laden aide Ayman] Zawahiri then we're able to say publicly," Goss [CIA director] said. He said the men had not been found "primarily because they don't want us to find them and they're going to great lengths to make sure we don't find them."
Real genius, that one.
Couldn't organize a sandwich, indeed.
-- Paul McNamee
http://writer.paulmcnamee.net
http://www.dorancoyle.net
"Queen of the Sepulcher" now appearing at The Sword Review, November 2005 - Bonus Features | | Back to Top | | |
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Scott M. Sandridge
Former King of Shameless Plugs
Date Joined Dec 2005
Total Posts : 714
| Posted 1/12/2006 3:31 AM (GMT -5) | | quote:
Originally posted by Daniel
If it wasn't for the economy, the environment, the war, rising gas prices, international terrorism, North Korea, the energy commission, the 9-11 hearings, the Scooter Libby indictments, the ongoing probe of Rove and Cheney, the declining faith and trust in the US goverment by its own citizens and the world at large, the spread of WMD, Abu Ghraib, Chalabi, the ruinous state of the public school system, a record deficeit and the senate majority leader being under investigation for racketeering, I'd say this administration has really lived up to its promises to bring "honor and dignity" back to the White House.
Interesting. Let's take these one at a time:
Economy: One word: NAFTA, combined with two more words: Credit Cards. not a whole lot can be done for those two problems.
The Environment: That's been a problem loooong before the bush Administration. And I don't hold much faith in the environmentalist groups. For one, most of them would get lost in their own back yards, let alone in an actual wilderness.
The War: According to my military friends who've recently come back from their tours: we're winning it. and I'll take their word over some reporter's any day.
Rising Gas Prices: There's three ways to fix that problem without the government's "help": (1)stop driving gas-guzzlers, (2)walk place-to-place more often or carpool, (3)stop driving, period, and walk everywhere (I chose option 3, but I'll admit most people won't be in a position to do so). As demand drops, so will the prices.
International Terrorism: Of all the things to blame Bush on, you actually chose that. Where've you been for the past 30 years?!
North Korea: I'll give you that one.
The Energy Commision: I'll have to study up on that one a bit first. But if it's about the Big Black out--that baby was set to go down years before.
The 9-11 Hearings: What about them?
The Scooter Libbey Indictments: Uhm refresh my memory on that one. Is that about revealing the name of an "undercover" CIA operative who wasn't undercover in the first place and therefore not illegal to reveal the name? Or am I thinking of a different indictment?
Ongoing Probe of Rove and Cheney: See the above paragraph, unless this one's about something else.
Declining Faith & Trust in the US Goverment by its Citizens: Remember where I asked you where you've been for the past 30 years? Scratch that: where've you been for the past 50 years?!
...and the World at Large: Really? See above paragraph.
the Spread of WMD: Again, been going on for many, many years.
Abu Ghraib: And? I personally know people who'd pay to have that done to them!
Chalabi: Ok. I'll give you that one.
Ruinous State of the Public School System: Dude, it was in ruins even back when I was in school, and that was 15 years ago!
Record Deficit: When has there not been one? And Clinton's faked "surpluss" doesn't count (nor any other "surplusses" that are done by bankrupting all 50 states).
Senate Majority Leader Under Investigation: I'll give you that one, as well.
3 out of 18. Not bad. You did better than most.
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Daniel
Carl Jung's Waterboy
Date Joined Aug 2003
Total Posts : 4515
| Posted 1/12/2006 7:10 AM (GMT -5) | | LOL.
I've never scored so low with so little justification (or such easy effort from the judge).
So, I will take your points -- of which I could discern two -- 1) Things have been messed up before the present admin. and 2) So what?
And respond: if it doesn't matter, then why support the Bush admin? There will be problems no matter who is in power, so why do you support Bush, Dude?
I mean, if you do -- I suppose your upstream observations could simply indicate an anarchistic philosophy or trascendentalist or Venusian for that matter.... ;-)
Daniel
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Daniel
Carl Jung's Waterboy
Date Joined Aug 2003
Total Posts : 4515
| Posted 1/12/2006 7:23 AM (GMT -5) | | Abu Ghraib: And? I personally know people who'd pay to have that done to them!
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You're joking right? Even so, something tells me that that statement isn't far from what Cheney and Rummy would say if they were being candid, but they might throw in "They're only Iraqis. They're used to being tortured and treated inhumanly."
Pardon me if I find this attitude just a bit flip and totally irrelevent for purposes of political discourse. It does reflect the apparent imperious attitude the Bush admin seems to be hypnotically dazzled by, but that's just hubris and cynicism backed by money and political power.
Daniel
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Scott M. Sandridge
Former King of Shameless Plugs
Date Joined Dec 2005
Total Posts : 714
| Posted 1/12/2006 11:58 AM (GMT -5) | | quote:
Originally posted by Daniel
LOL.
I've never scored so low with so little justification (or such easy effort from the judge).
So, I will take your points -- of which I could discern two -- 1) Things have been messed up before the present admin. and 2) So what?
And respond: if it doesn't matter, then why support the Bush admin? There will be problems no matter who is in power, so why do you support Bush, Dude?
I mean, if you do -- I suppose your upstream observations could simply indicate an anarchistic philosophy or trascendentalist or Venusian for that matter.... ;-)
As far as supporting Bush goes, it was either him or Kerry. Personally, I think all the blame-throwing going on in Washington is nothing more than T.V. candy to keep people distracted from a more serious issue happening right in our backyards (in some cases, literally). i.e. the expansion of Imminent Domain powers. The idea that the government can force me out of my home so they can build a strip-mall or golf course makes me wonder if I'm living in America or the Soviet Union.
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Scott M. Sandridge
Former King of Shameless Plugs
Date Joined Dec 2005
Total Posts : 714
| Posted 1/12/2006 12:21 PM (GMT -5) | | quote:
Originally posted by Daniel
Abu Ghraib: And? I personally know people who'd pay to have that done to them!
***
You're joking right? Even so, something tells me that that statement isn't far from what Cheney and Rummy would say if they were being candid, but they might throw in "They're only Iraqis. They're used to being tortured and treated inhumanly."
Pardon me if I find this attitude just a bit flip and totally irrelevent for purposes of political discourse. It does reflect the apparent imperious attitude the Bush admin seems to be hypnotically dazzled by, but that's just hubris and cynicism backed by money and political power.
Yeah, in a way it's a joke (Although I do know people who would pay for such treatment. But, hey, masochists are like that). Thing is, the ones in Abu Graihb prison were former Baathists who did far worse things to their fellow Iraqi's while working for Sadaam Hussein. So I doubt the Iraqi people were all that concerned over what happened in Abu Graihb. Sure, a small minority of them had a coniption fit over it, inflated a hundredfold by the Media, but that's the Media for you.
I look at it this way. If I heard about a bunch of guys--who had raped, butchered, and tortured my friends and family members--getting the same treatment, I know I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. Then again, I was raised in Hillbilly country, so the concept of "an eye for an eye" is not that foreign to me.
But most people don't know who exactly the prisoners in Abu Graihb were because (surpries, surprise) the Media never bothered to make that clear.
And before anyone tries to take this out of context (not pointing a finger at you with this, but let's face it, there's others reading the post who might take it the wrong way), I'll go ahead and give my statement to what the obvious accusation will be. I have nothing but the deepest respect for the Iraqi people. Heck, they had a voter turnout of over %60 while under death threats! Meanwhile, in America, only %30 of the total population voted and many who didn't vote used "fear of mean looks from lawyers" as an excuse. How spineless is that?
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Daniel
Carl Jung's Waterboy
Date Joined Aug 2003
Total Posts : 4515
| Posted 1/12/2006 1:01 PM (GMT -5) | | Meanwhile, in America, only %30 of the total population voted and many who didn't vote used "fear of mean looks from lawyers" as an excuse. How spineless is that?
Hey Scott,
That's pretty funny.
I gotta admit I haven't heard anyone voicing concerns over "Imminent Domain" for quite a while!
In some ways, that seems a perfect symbol for the whole rotten mess.
You're right about the expansion of government powers, though -- freakin' scary.
Daniel
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Scott M. Sandridge
Former King of Shameless Plugs
Date Joined Dec 2005
Total Posts : 714
| Posted 1/12/2006 1:30 PM (GMT -5) | | Yeah, more scary than a horror novel.
Thing is concern over "Imminent Domain" expansion is one of the few things Conservatives, Liberals, and everyone in between can agree on, and yet I've only seen it discussed on Hannity & Colmes over at FNC (and they discuss it almost daily). Please tell me the rest of the Media hasn't been sweeping it under the rug. Please.
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MichaelEhart
Sage
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 2352
| Posted 1/12/2006 2:35 PM (GMT -5) | | quote:
Interesting. Let's take these one at a time:
Economy: One word: NAFTA, combined with two more words: Credit Cards. not a whole lot can be done for those two problems.
While this cannot be laid at the feet of Bush, there is a trend toward income disparity that has accelerated during the Bush years. Executive compensation has by hundreds of percent, while worker income has been pretty stagnant. In a consumer-driven economy, this is deadly.
quote:
The Environment: That's been a problem loooong before the bush Administration. And I don't hold much faith in the environmentalist groups. For one, most of them would get lost in their own back yards, let alone in an actual wilderness.
The evinronmental groups aren't in charge. Blaming them or straw-manning them is just noise and a distraction. The fact is, environmental enforcement has been movced to a very low priority under this administration--- you know this, just are choosing to ignore it.
quote:
The War: According to my military friends who've recently come back from their tours: we're winning it. and I'll take their word over some reporter's any day.
Depends on what you mean by winning--- is there a large-scale military force opposing us there? No.
Is there a plan and a set of benchmarks for when we will be done, or are we in a situation like Viet Nam, where every 6 months there was another election, we killed thousands of the bad guys, and it still never moved toward any discernable goal?
quote:
Rising Gas Prices: There's three ways to fix that problem without the government's "help": (1)stop driving gas-guzzlers, (2)walk place-to-place more often or carpool, (3)stop driving, period, and walk everywhere (I chose option 3, but I'll admit most people won't be in a position to do so). As demand drops, so will the prices.
Peak oil is a problem that Cheney actually ridiculed in the first few months of the administration. He also mocked your solution, conservation. The truth is, Exxon announced profits of nearly 10 Billion dollars for the latest quarter when there was supposedly high prices because of production disruptions. At the same time as fuel prices are a record highs, the adminsitration and its pet congress have slashed fuel subsidies for the poor while also slashing taxes for the richest 10%--- all this just two months ago. Tax credits, which is a huge incentive for big business to do r&d, for alternate energy development have been cut, as well, mostly to please the Oil lobby.
quote:
International Terrorism: Of all the things to blame Bush on, you actually chose that. Where've you been for the past 30 years?!
Not his fault, but his crappy response was. The whole world was with us after 9/11. He threw it away to play in Iraq.
quote:
North Korea: I'll give you that one.
Thanks--- it do suck, don't it :)
quote:
The Energy Commision: I'll have to study up on that one a bit first. But if it's about the Big Black out--that baby was set to go down years before.
They didn't require swearing in of the big oil guys--- almost unheard of. It allowed them to lie, on the public record, about their meetings with Dick Cheney.
The 9-11 Hearings: What about them?
quote:
The Scooter Libbey Indictments: Uhm refresh my memory on that one. Is that about revealing the name of an "undercover" CIA operative who wasn't undercover in the first place and therefore not illegal to reveal the name? Or am I thinking of a different indictment?
Here you have clearly gotten your talking points from Rush. No, it is about lying to a grand jury under oath. The investigation is about outing a CIA agent. Your sources are off on this one--- the CIA says she was covert, the FBI says she was covert--- And if it wasn't illegal, why investigate? And why lie?
quote:
Ongoing Probe of Rove and Cheney: See the above paragraph, unless this one's about something else.
Rove is a famous dirty-trickster from way back. Not an answer to your question, just an observation.
quote:
Declining Faith & Trust in the US Goverment by its Citizens: Remember where I asked you where you've been for the past 30 years? Scratch that: where've you been for the past 50 years?!
...and the World at Large: Really? See above paragraph.
the Spread of WMD: Again, been going on for many, many years.
Agree agree. But making it worse isn't helping any.
quote:
Abu Ghraib: And? I personally know people who'd pay to have that done to them!
Scott, none of these folks were convicted of anything. One of the chief issues with Bush is the steady erosion of due process.
Most of the folks in Abu Gharib were captured in round-ups--- many informed on by neighbors. No trial, no evidence, just an accusation.
Perhaps you were raised in Hillbilly country, but you know, you can transcend that. In the case of Abu Gharib it was our guys torturing (sometimes to death) suspects. SUSPECTS, not convicts. Folks who MIGHT have been connected to the bad guys.
Your statement may have been meant to be funny, but, man, it sure was ugly.
Using the big bad scary tactic, let's say a neighbor with whom you had a dispute turned you in as a "terrorist"--- would it then be okay with you to be waterboarded, be chained to naked to a railing for hours, have to sleep in your own feces, or even, as the OFFICAL reports (not some fantasy from some reporter) states, have your sons sodomized in front of you, hoping for information that you may not even have?
Yessir--- I am sure that there are some who think that is the American way, but I am pretty sure that an old Hillbilly like you is too damn proud to think such an ugly thing about America.
quote:
Chalabi: Ok. I'll give you that one.
Lots of people were fooled by him. But he was telling them what they wanted to hear.
quote:
Ruinous State of the Public School System: Dude, it was in ruins even back when I was in school, and that was 15 years ago!
NCLB is a great idea, but its implimentation was based on fraudulent data, and it's mandate has been unfunded. Adding requirements without funding them throws huge weight back on local school districts. Rich districts can handle it--- poor ones only get worse.
quote:
Record Deficit: When has there not been one? And Clinton's faked "surpluss" doesn't count (nor any other "surplusses" that are done by bankrupting all 50 states).
So then it is okay (even if we allow the Rushonomics of the "fake Clinton surplus" pass) to make it even worse? Dude it is CHINA who is holding our paper--- you know, the commies!
quote:
Senate Majority Leader Under Investigation: I'll give you that one, as well.
3 out of 18. Not bad. You did better than most
Only if you allow the home team to provide the umpire and make the rules :)
Sheesh, Scott, please accept this fisking with grace. I don't think you are a bad guy, I just think that you are letting the guys who think that whatever their team (in this case the R's) does is right, provide you with information and opinion. If you are geeting the bulk of your news from Fox, or Rush, or some place like LGF or Free Republic, then you are listening to an echo chamber.
"Dancing with the Elder Gods"-- Thirteen Magazine, October
"It's a Living" Byzarium---November
"Voice of the Spoiler" and "An Exorcism Straight, Hold the Elvis" The Sword Review, October
"Oathbreaker" Mythica Vault
Host, 2005 Nebula Awards Live Chat, sff.net
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BarbT
Acolyte
Date Joined Feb 2005
Total Posts : 394
| Posted 1/12/2006 5:36 PM (GMT -5) | | quote:
Originally posted by MichaelEhart
If you are geeting the bulk of your news from Fox, or Rush, or some place like LGF or Free Republic, then you are listening to an echo chamber.
The same is true for information obtained from mainstream (and generally Liberal/Democrat) media. EVERYONE has an agenda, so it's almost impossible to learn the truth about anything. [:(]
Barb | | Back to Top | | |
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Raph
Stubborn Scholar
Date Joined Oct 2004
Total Posts : 263
| Posted 1/12/2006 8:38 PM (GMT -5) | |
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