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nathan
Sage
      
Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 2176
| Posted 5/10/2007 12:15 PM (GMT -5) |   | Besides, speak for youself Howlie, LOL. According to the Provisions of Inclusion set for by the Oklahoma Tribal Council, I'm Cheeroke.
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"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages." | | Back to Top | | |
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MichaelEhart
Sage
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 2352
| Posted 5/10/2007 3:38 PM (GMT -5) | | | Haole is the Hawaiian name for blue-eyed devil. The trade-language word, which has replaced most of the individual language group names for white-eyes is shiapu in the west and wasichu in the east.
The etymology of shiapu is weird--- it probably comes from the English word swap, to trade. Which in turn comes from the Romany word shwap, which means the same thing.
"The Scarlet Colored Beast" The Sword Review, September 2007 "Nothing But Our Tears" The Sword Review. August 2007
"Weaving Spiders Come Not Here" The Sword Review, July 2007
"The View From the Shotglass Floor" Ray Gun Revival, coming soon!
"Six Zombies Doing That Mick Jagger Strut" Damned in Dixie, March 2007
"The Death of Number 23" Dark Krypt, Fall 2006
"Servant of the Manthycore" Sword Review, April 2006
"Voice of the Spoiler" Better Fiction, Spring 2006
"Dancing with the Elder Gods"-- Thirteen Magazine, October 2005
"It's a Living" Byzarium---November 2005
"An Exorcism Straight, Hold the Elvis" The Sword Review, October 2005
Host, 2005 Nebula Awards Live Chat, sff.net
http://mehart.blogspot.com/ | | Back to Top | | |
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MichaelEhart
Sage
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 2352
| Posted 5/10/2007 4:08 PM (GMT -5) | | |
So far as I know, the earliest transliteration is from Alexander Ross's Chinook Vocabulary, published in 1849, where he had it both as cheepool and shiapu. Contemporary pronunciation is shee ah poo, which seems pretty close. It is sometimes written with a diacritical, but I suspect that is more affectation than actual usage.
Ross had the meaning of the word as hat, which is wrong, as the root for the actual word for hat, and most other garment words don't match. Chances are, he pointed at his hat and they thought he was indicating himself. Or it could have been the local slang for hat.
30 years ago I could carry on basic conversation in Sahaptin, the main language of the Columbia Basin tribes. Now all I remember are a few sentances and phrases. Oh, and the cuss words, of course :)
"The Scarlet Colored Beast" The Sword Review, September 2007
"Nothing But Our Tears" The Sword Review. August 2007
"Weaving Spiders Come Not Here" The Sword Review, July 2007
"The View From the Shotglass Floor" Ray Gun Revival, coming soon!
"Six Zombies Doing That Mick Jagger Strut" Damned in Dixie, March 2007
"The Death of Number 23" Dark Krypt, Fall 2006
"Servant of the Manthycore" Sword Review, April 2006
"Voice of the Spoiler" Better Fiction, Spring 2006
"Dancing with the Elder Gods"-- Thirteen Magazine, October 2005
"It's a Living" Byzarium---November 2005
"An Exorcism Straight, Hold the Elvis" The Sword Review, October 2005
Host, 2005 Nebula Awards Live Chat, sff.net
http://mehart.blogspot.com/ | | Back to Top | | |
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MichaelEhart
Sage
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 2352
| Posted 5/10/2007 4:40 PM (GMT -5) | | 'Ua lelei, matua ’oe.
(Samoan: "No problem, old man." I hope.) Polynesian languages are hard.
"The Scarlet Colored Beast" The Sword Review, September 2007 "Nothing But Our Tears" The Sword Review. August 2007
"Weaving Spiders Come Not Here" The Sword Review, July 2007
"The View From the Shotglass Floor" Ray Gun Revival, coming soon!
"Six Zombies Doing That Mick Jagger Strut" Damned in Dixie, March 2007
"The Death of Number 23" Dark Krypt, Fall 2006
"Servant of the Manthycore" Sword Review, April 2006
"Voice of the Spoiler" Better Fiction, Spring 2006
"Dancing with the Elder Gods"-- Thirteen Magazine, October 2005
"It's a Living" Byzarium---November 2005
"An Exorcism Straight, Hold the Elvis" The Sword Review, October 2005
Host, 2005 Nebula Awards Live Chat, sff.net
http://mehart.blogspot.com/ | | Back to Top | | |
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MichaelEhart
Sage
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 2352
| Posted 5/10/2007 4:46 PM (GMT -5) | | LOL. Yes! I have defeated the mighty Nathan in the fierce Arena of Pedantry. Now I can wear unchallenged the Golden Pocket-Protector of Useless Knowledge!
"The Scarlet Colored Beast" The Sword Review, September 2007
"Nothing But Our Tears" The Sword Review. August 2007
"Weaving Spiders Come Not Here" The Sword Review, July 2007
"The View From the Shotglass Floor" Ray Gun Revival, coming soon!
"Six Zombies Doing That Mick Jagger Strut" Damned in Dixie, March 2007
"The Death of Number 23" Dark Krypt, Fall 2006
"Servant of the Manthycore" Sword Review, April 2006
"Voice of the Spoiler" Better Fiction, Spring 2006
"Dancing with the Elder Gods"-- Thirteen Magazine, October 2005
"It's a Living" Byzarium---November 2005
"An Exorcism Straight, Hold the Elvis" The Sword Review, October 2005
Host, 2005 Nebula Awards Live Chat, sff.net
http://mehart.blogspot.com/ | | Back to Top | | |
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BethS
Adept
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 751
| Posted 5/11/2007 2:26 PM (GMT -5) | | Nathan,
I've been giving some thought to your supposition that racism (as you defined it) is dying out and that most examples of bigotry today stem from cultural bigotry.
My first reaction is that I'm not sure the line between the two is all that clear cut. Oh, it's clear intellectually, but in practice, I believe race and culture are inextricably intertwined in the minds of many people. Take the white bigot who calls someone south of the border a dirty Mexican or the Mexican bigot who calls the white man a gringo. Are those slurs based on skin color and ethnicity, or on culture?
Either or both. I don't believe your average bigot makes a distinction.
Second thing is--I believe racism (cultural and biological) is alive and well, not only in the US, but around the world. I hear about it all the time, less through polls and studies than anecdotally--what I observe and the stories my children tell about what they observe at school. Interestingly enough, what seems to be declining (at least here in the South) is the racism of whites against people of color (particularly blacks) and what is increasing, or at least becoming more visible, is racism against whites on the part of blacks and Hispanics.
Also, racism can be region specific. For instance, I spent most of my childhood in the west (Washington, California, Nevada, and Colorado). Blacks, who were admittedly fairly scarce where we lived, were not targets of prejudice and bigotry--but Native Americans and Hispanics were. When I was in elementary school, one of my playmates was a black boy. I used to visit his house from time to time. That would never have happened in the segregated south of the sixties. OTOH, I was not acquainted with any Hispanic or Native American children--because they didn't mingle much with whites. Consequently, I think their very separateness and the often accompanying poverty made them objects for bigotry. It is human nature to fear and dislike what we don't understand, and that natural fear sometimes takes on an ugly form.
Consequently, the best cure for bigotry seems to be close exposure--that is, a general integration into middle class American society, something which it seems popular for many ethnic groups to resist these days, possibly because they fear losing their cultural identity but also because bigotry against whites and the white culture is often encouraged in such groups. And the reasons those attitudes are encouraged is purely political. Certainly, no one gains by it, except the party that stands to win their votes by telling them how downtrodden and discriminated against they are.
~Beth
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nathan
Sage
Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 2176
| Posted 5/11/2007 2:41 PM (GMT -5) | | Beth I read your post and I don't think we are really all that far apart. As I understood what you were writing you are describing cultural biases sometimes using skin color as easy "flags" for ID purposes. Your answer, ingration and close exposure, makes sense to me but would only work if the bias were indeed cultural and trully racial based as I was trying to say.
i.e. Jews were inclose proximity to Nazis. This resulted in ghettos and camps, not intergration because the hatred wasn't based on a misunderstanding of cultural that was eliminated through education but rather on the premise of Master Race.
The point being that culutral insensativity can be educated or "exposed" away to a large degree. True racism based on the belief of genetic differences making someone inferior to someone else is a different breed of hatred.
The point as tied into the discussion of Rush L's statements being that while it could be argued that they were insensative to diviristy or coming from a biased place (say a hatred of gansta hip-hop culture) to label them racism can be self defeating because they make the accuser seem irrational or waterdown our understanding of what race-based hatred is.
Statement: "I hate hip hop culture and think it destructive." Reply: "Hip-hop is black expression. If you hate black expression you are a racist." (or something)
Well it is possible to hate every backbeat and street level utterance of hip-hop and its accrutrements and NOT think people of color are a racially inferior group because of genetics or bibilical curse or whatever asinine rationalizations exisist.
This was of course painted in primary colors for space saving succinctness and is not meant as a magic wand to cure racial/culutral tensions.
VIEW IMAGE
"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages." | | Back to Top | | |
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BethS
Adept
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 751
| Posted 5/11/2007 3:01 PM (GMT -5) | |
nathan said...Beth I read your post and I don't think we are really all that far apart. As I understood what you were writing you are describing cultural biases sometimes using skin color as easy "flags" for ID purposes. Your answer, ingration and close exposure, makes sense to me but would only work if the bias were indeed cultural and trully racial based as I was trying to say. i.e. Jews were inclose proximity to Nazis. This resulted in ghettos and camps, not intergration because the hatred wasn't based on a misunderstanding of cultural that was eliminated through education but rather on the premise of Master Race. The point being that culutral insensativity can be educated or "exposed" away to a large degree. True racism based on the belief of genetic differences making someone inferior to someone else is a different breed of hatred. The point as tied into the discussion of Rush L's statements being that while it could be argued that they were insensative to diviristy or coming from a biased place (say a hatred of gansta hip-hop culture) to label them racism can be self defeating because they make the accuser seem irrational or waterdown our understanding of what race-based hatred is. Statement: "I hate hip hop culture and think it destructive." Reply: "Hip-hop is black expression. If you hate black expression you are a racist." (or something) Well it is possible to hate every backbeat and street level utterance of hip-hop and its accrutrements and NOT think people of color are a racially inferior group because of genetics or bibilical curse or whatever asinine rationalizations exisist. This was of course painted in primary colors for space saving succinctness and is not meant as a magic wand to cure racial/culutral tensions.
OK, yes. I see where you're coming from. And I agree. There is a form of bigotry that is pure biological racism, and proximity is not likely to cure it in the person or group that's determined to harbor it. Though it can, perhaps, be kept from growing in future generations through education and good parenting*. But the will to turn from it has to be there.
(*Although it's a given those who are died-in-the-wool racists are not going to be good parents in that respect.)
~Beth
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MichaelEhart
Sage
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 2352
| Posted 5/11/2007 3:28 PM (GMT -5) | | Great discussion, y'all. Man I love this forum!
Racism is more than race-based hatred. It can many times manifest itself in a fashion less intense than open hatred. Simply an attitude of inherent superiority is enough. When the same clerk at the grocery store requires ID for a credit card purchase from my black wife, but the previous day did not require it from me, the middle-aged white guy indicates that things are not totally rosy. A small thing, but we see stuff like that daily.
It might be useful if we were to separate Racism=race hatred from the old-fashioned term prejudgice=pre-judging based on racial stereotypes.
Beth, I saw the same thing growing up--- my locker-partner in HS was a member of one of the only 2 black families in town. They had very little trouble, but the guys on the nearby rez often had trouble getting served in restaurants.
"The Scarlet Colored Beast" The Sword Review, September 2007
"Nothing But Our Tears" The Sword Review. August 2007
"Weaving Spiders Come Not Here" The Sword Review, July 2007
"The View From the Shotglass Floor" Ray Gun Revival, coming soon!
"Six Zombies Doing That Mick Jagger Strut" Damned in Dixie, March 2007
"The Death of Number 23" Dark Krypt, Fall 2006
"Servant of the Manthycore" Sword Review, April 2006
"Voice of the Spoiler" Better Fiction, Spring 2006
"Dancing with the Elder Gods"-- Thirteen Magazine, October 2005
"It's a Living" Byzarium---November 2005
"An Exorcism Straight, Hold the Elvis" The Sword Review, October 2005
Host, 2005 Nebula Awards Live Chat, sff.net
http://mehart.blogspot.com/ | | Back to Top | | |
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nathan
Sage
Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 2176
| Posted 5/12/2007 12:36 PM (GMT -5) | |
MichaelEhart said...
It might be useful if we were to separate Racism=race hatred from the old-fashioned term prejudgice=pre-judging based on racial stereotypes. I think this makes sense, if I'm understanding it right. The use of the term "old fashioned" is throwing me a little. Do you meant "old fashioned" as in, like a mullet haircut, we shouldn't use it anymore and should refer to the credit card incident you described as racism instead of prejudice?
This would seem to imply that the clerk accepted your credit card without ID and not the other person's (your dear wife) not because of some ill-understood conception of crime and the black minority but because he judged you a biologically superior member of the great race?
I'm not arguing, I'm trying to get a grasp of the language we use so that it is objective not subjective--it's the only bit of my Ann Rand days left in me. I mean taken the wrong way and with one misstep in a conversatin like this and it could be very easy to say something stupid.
This whole example reminds me of the Eddie Murphy "White Like Me" skit from SNL back in the 80's. Are you sure the clerk didn't just tell you to "go ahead, take it. Go ahead they're not watching." (?) [note I guess that's only funny if you've seen the skit otherwise I might sound cracked].
VIEW IMAGE"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews
Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages." | | Back to Top | | |
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MichaelEhart
Sage
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 2352
| Posted 5/12/2007 2:29 PM (GMT -5) | | One of the best SNL skits ever.
The clerk was employing prejudice. I used the old-fashioned because back in my day (when dinosaurs ruled the earth), what we now call racism was generally called prejudice.
For the pupose of this discussion, lets posit a continuum racist>prejudiced>unaware but offending.
"The Scarlet Colored Beast" The Sword Review, September 2007
"Nothing But Our Tears" The Sword Review. August 2007
"Weaving Spiders Come Not Here" The Sword Review, July 2007
"The View From the Shotglass Floor" Ray Gun Revival, coming soon!
"Six Zombies Doing That Mick Jagger Strut" Damned in Dixie, March 2007
"The Death of Number 23" Dark Krypt, Fall 2006
"Servant of the Manthycore" Sword Review, April 2006
"Voice of the Spoiler" Better Fiction, Spring 2006
"Dancing with the Elder Gods"-- Thirteen Magazine, October 2005
"It's a Living" Byzarium---November 2005
"An Exorcism Straight, Hold the Elvis" The Sword Review, October 2005
Host, 2005 Nebula Awards Live Chat, sff.net
http://mehart.blogspot.com/ | | Back to Top | | |
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Daniel
Carl Jung's Waterboy
Date Joined Aug 2003
Total Posts : 4515
| Posted 7/3/2007 12:16 PM (GMT -5) | | EVERYTIME I try to watch the news on television, I am assaulted (and that's the only correct term here) by "celebrity" gossip, "missing wife" segments, and soundbytes from reality T.V.
I find this to be quite an unhappy state of circumstances because I do not, as a rule, enjoy watching sitcoms or nightime soaps or reality TV or yellow journalism. I like sports (football and golf and horse-racing) and I like music (videos concerts) and I like good movies and news. But I have NO interest in celebrity gossip or the like and I really wish someone, somewhere who is charge of news programming would someday decide the best thing to do is give out NEWS!!!!!
When the car-bomb exploded in Glasgow the other day, MSNBC showed a picture of this burning car, live, I presume, for appx. 4-5 hours!!! Good lord!!! This is like little kids in preschool: "Fire.... Fire pretty." What a load of garbage!!!!
I get a lot of news online where you don't have to suffer through as much crap, but it sue would be nice if I could actually get some news when I sit down in front of the "devil's box" to commune with our Satanic society!
"Art is the celebration of the ego's destruction."
Daniel | | Back to Top | | |
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erazmus
Master
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4554
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