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Shade53
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  		   Posted 11/28/2007 12:33 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
was pointed to this article today and thought I'd pass it along -
 
 
3-6 cents a word - not so bad, giving all rights for 3-6 cents per word seems way out of line.
 
 
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Chaos, Perpetual
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  		   Posted 11/28/2007 12:49 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
  Yes, I remember Dragon...but it's been many years since I paid any attention to it.
  I concur with your above statement, though. 3-6 cents, perhaps...if the circumstances were different. I'm not keen on selling all rights to anyone(in regard to original material), the exception being if I write the piece specifically for a given party/publication.
  Perhaps I'm just exceptionally stingy with my rights, though.
 

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crystalwizard
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  		   Posted 11/28/2007 12:59 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Dragon is now published by Wizard's of the Coast. It's changed a lot since the days when TSR published it.

I'm curious, folks. Dragon pretty much publishes the stuff that appeals to people that play AD&D. So which of you is going to write something like that then seriously want to hang on to the rights to say, an audio drama? Have you looked at what goes into the magazine? I'd have no problem giving them the rights, because I don't think I'd even want to try to market anything I'd sell them anywhere else.
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J Erwine
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  		   Posted 11/28/2007 12:59 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Personally, I don't think you should ever sell all rights to anything you create.

 

 
 
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Bill Ward
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  		   Posted 11/28/2007 1:05 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Well, it's apples and oranges, like Scalzi's suggestion writers were better off submiting to Realms, F&SF, etc. at the same price point -- that's like telling a rock'n'roller they're better off playing in the symphony -- different market needs, different audience, different skill sets. No one actually thinks Dragon Magazine and Realms of Fantasy publish anything like the same kind of fiction, do they? Scalzi seemed to.

From the perspective of a lot of people that want to have a career in the world of RPG products and freelance work the work-for-hire thing is standard, and a sale to Dragon magazine might actually get them noticed in that industry in a way a sale to a short fiction SF or Fantasy mag just can't do in the world of big publishing. Plus, my guess is a lot of the content of these stories, like characters, settings, etc., would be trademarked material, like fan fic, and this way I suppose the corporate guys can open up the world for people to play in without worrying about lawsuits.

The bad thing is it basically demarcates the borders of RPG world and commercial fiction world, as you aren't going to see talented people from the world of traditional publishing submitting material, you'll just have an rpg ghetto with the same names over and over again and no influx from writers outside. I think that aspect of it is a real shame, as it'd be great to have a talented fantasy writer submit a bit of adventure fiction to Dragon -- whose audience are probably big fans of non-licensed products from names like Jordan, Gemmell, Martin, Williams, etc. My guess is the fiction will have to be there to sell product anyway, so anything outside the narrow confines of the game world and the mechanics of D&D probably isn't going to find its way into the game's house organ. It isn't an independently run magazine anymore, but part of the WoTC product line.

billwardwriter.com

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crystalwizard
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  		   Posted 11/28/2007 1:14 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Bill Ward said...
it'd be great to have a talented fantasy writer submit a bit of adventure fiction to Dragon


They wouldn't publish it. Pretty much anything that goes into any gaming mag has to tie in with the games they publish, even the stories. Worked in that industry far too long.

That line of demarcation is already drawn, and has been for years.
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Bill Ward
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  		   Posted 11/28/2007 1:34 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Which is a shame, because those mags command big and loyal audiences that naturally translate over to the world of publishing outside of industry fiction.

But it does illustrate why its work-for-hire, and almost has to be to be workable -- after all the material being asked for is probably pseudo-proprietary at the least. I think the way to really look at this isn't so much how awful Dragon is for grabbing up rights for a pittance, but how nice it is that they have opened up their game world for potential writers who might just be spinning their wheels with fanfic and getting nothing in exchange but e-pats on the back.

Scalzi described it as a stupidity test, but I don't think he really understands its a completely different animal from traditional fiction mags.

billwardwriter.com

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LWhittier
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  		   Posted 11/28/2007 1:55 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Eeenteresting. I used to read Dragon way back when -- some, oh, 10-odd years ago -- and it's good to see them reopening their doors. I don't know that I'll be subbing there anytime in the foreseeable future, but I don't see what Scalzi is getting so worked up about either. I agree with Bill's take on the whole thing: if you happen to write that kind of material, and you're willing to sell all rights understanding what it is you're doing, hey. More power to you. The magazine's not trying to hide anything; they've put their terms on the table. If you're okay with that, great. If not, don't sub there. But I can't imagine it hurts anyone to have a new market open.
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Shade53
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  		   Posted 11/28/2007 2:49 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'd never heard of Dragon before being directed to this particular article. I know very little about the world of RPGs - I just thought it might be of interest. I, for one, can't imagine selling all rights to something I wrote - but I also don't like to write in other people's worlds.

~S

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Bill Ward
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  		   Posted 11/28/2007 3:07 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I understand completely, if you aren't familiar with that work-for-hire world it seems kind of appalling, but it is something of an apples and oranges debate when presented as Scalzi did in his blog.

I've started another thread on the topic of work-for-hire in the writing subforum as I think its an interesting and often misunderstood aspect of commercial writing.

billwardwriter.com

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Daniel
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  		   Posted 11/28/2007 3:21 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Dragon has historically had very long response times and an intensely selective process for fiction. Used to be they had an extensive breakdown of their story selection process, not ten years ago, put maybe two years ago was the last time I checked.

Becaase they are an RPG-based pub they receive a TON of fan-fiction and beginner RPG ficiton which makes it even harder for your story to stand out of the slush.

Also, WoC is well known for taking the rights to ficton and other creative properties and running with it, to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars in some cases...

"Art is the celebration of the ego's destruction."

Daniel

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Dragon Angel
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  		   Posted 11/28/2007 4:52 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
If you want to get published by Dragon magazine, it's probably better to send in "non-fiction". The quotes here are because it's hard to call an article non-fiction when it is about a fiction species, or race, or class, or plane of existence, etc.

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Saanen
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  		   Posted 11/28/2007 6:10 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I would never sell all rights to any piece of original fiction, no matter how much I was offered.  If the world and the characters are my inventions, I might want to write about them again.
 
Now, if I was writing in someone else's world with someone else's characters (and I cannot for one second imagine why I would want to do such a thing), that is a little different.  But they would have to pay me a lot more than 3-6 cents a word even so.

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crystalwizard
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  		   Posted 11/28/2007 7:30 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Saanen said...
I would never sell all rights to any piece of original fiction, no matter how much I was offered. If the world and the characters are my inventions, I might want to write about them again.


Now, if I was writing in someone else's world with someone else's characters (and I cannot for one second imagine why I would want to do such a thing), that is a little different. But they would have to pay me a lot more than 3-6 cents a word even so.


What you don't understand is that Dragon is a gaming magazine. Not just a fiction magazine. They're a gaming mag of a gaming company and anything that they publish in that magazine is going to be supporting, in some way, their games. Most stories are going to be based on their games, and probably concern the adventures of characters invloved in one of the RPG settings they publish. Most of the other stuff are going to be things like scenarios, characters, and so on... for their games.

Does R.A. Salvatore ring any bells? That's what they publish. So you write about the characters again. Guess who you're going to be selling the next story to, anyway?
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Saanen
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  		   Posted 11/28/2007 9:50 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I used to read Dragon Magazine when I was in middle school.  I know all about it.  I used to love the artwork in particular; I wish I'd saved my old issues.
 
That doesn't change my opinion that they don't pay enough for all rights.  But certainly don't let that stop you if you want to write a story and give it away for pizza money.

 Kate Shaw
 
"The King's Messenger" Renard's Menagerie #4 [forthcoming]
"Honeymoon" Desolate Places, Hadley Rille Books
"Sawmill Road," "Bad Luck," "How My Sister Lost the Game," Every Day Fiction
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"Final Episode" Triangulations 2007: End of Time

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H.P. Lovesauce
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  		   Posted 11/29/2007 10:15 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

'Sfunny, with those guidelines, Dragon seems to want new, original works, but won't let go of the banana of creative ownership so it could flag down top-flight authors. So it craves original work but is treating it as work-for-hire.

As for the kind of fiction Dragon would want, well, D&D has sword-and-sorcery in its DNA, and they want the kind of new worlds and catchy characters that'd give them a new IP with which to rule ze world!

I think they're as sick of derivative D&D fiction as we are; they just can't let go of the banana...

EDITED to add: huh-huh, Bill said "organ".
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Bill Ward
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  		   Posted 11/29/2007 2:37 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
H.P. Lovesauce said...


EDITED to add: huh-huh, Bill said "organ".


Only because I knew it'd make you blush blush

But you're right, and it is a shame that there isn't a magazine with this kind of built in audience that took an array of spec fic without trying to gobble the rights.

billwardwriter.com

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Daniel
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  		   Posted 11/29/2007 6:16 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
If it's any consolation at all: I read Dragon Mag for many years and I don't remember a single piece of fiction that I read over however many issues. The closest I remember, and fondly, was a humorous RPG-send up that featured a team of bumbling adventurers who had to fight against a "recyclasaurus" and a Giant with a sharp #2 pencil.

Now that's humor, baby!

"Art is the celebration of the ego's destruction."

Daniel

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Jordan Lapp
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  		   Posted 11/30/2007 12:50 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I remember that story too!!!

Jordan Lapp
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nathan
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  		   Posted 11/30/2007 3:46 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Well I just sent them a submission. I figure if they buy it and run with it but use other authors I can always put it on my resume (I created Forgotten Realms or I created DragonLance can't hurt your CV).

I mean, it won't be the only set of characters or fantasy world I create either. Maybe I'll get published and ask to do a work-for-hire project based on this sample.

Maybe I'll just get rejected freaked

I'll you know by Feb 1st turn

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Daniel
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  		   Posted 11/30/2007 5:39 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jordan Lapp said...
I remember that story too!!!

LOL, you wouldn't happen to have a copy of that issue lying around?
 
I did notive that Ad&D online has a lot of old stuff, but not fiction, from Dragon Mag archived as pdf's on their site.
 
Old modules, too.
 
And old rules editions.
 
 
 
 

"Art is the celebration of the ego's destruction."

Daniel

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Daniel
Carl Jung's Waterboy



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  		   Posted 11/30/2007 5:41 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
BTW, I did try the trial version of Dungeons and Dragons online and I thought it was pretty weak.

IT took an hour and a half to download the game and then it was just pretty cheesy from what I saw in less than 20 minutes of game time.

"Art is the celebration of the ego's destruction."

Daniel

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crystalwizard
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  		   Posted 12/1/2007 3:15 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
If you want to submit stuff to a gaming company, send it to SJ Games:

www.sjgames.com/

They have 2 mags www.sjgames.com/zines/. Links to all sorts of stuff are at the top of the page. They have at least as large an audience as Dragon, and they do NOT take all the rights to your work.

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UnclePete
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  		   Posted 12/4/2007 12:02 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
crystalwizard said...

They're a gaming mag of a gaming company and anything that they publish in that magazine is going to be supporting, in some way, their games. Most stories are going to be based on their games, and probably concern the adventures of characters involved in one of the RPG settings they publish.


This didn't used to be the case way back when I read Dragon -- they sought stories that were actively NON gaming oriented. Mind you, that was probably 20 years ago-ish, and Dragon was still TSR. Sad that they're looking only for gaming fiction now.

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narrativium
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  		   Posted 12/4/2007 7:22 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
crystalwizard: both the sjgames magazines state in their "writing for us" pages that they explicitly don't accept submissions of fiction or poetry.
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