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| SFReader Forums > Writing > Juicy Rumors and Other News > Amazon & BookSurge | Forum Quick Jump
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Shade53
Acolyte
      
Date Joined Jan 2005
Total Posts : 218
| Posted 3/27/2008 7:36 PM (GMT -4) |   | | Came across this article today and found it quite interesting, thought I'd pass it along. I'm probably putting it in the wrong place but figured I'd post it.
Currently Appearing
Moronar's Vessel - Golden Visions Magazine
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Pulling Threads - The Written Word, Enough - Mouth Full of Bullets, Blur of Tiers - Lorelai Signal, Tomb of Setankan - Ruins Metropolis, Trinity - Sounds of the Night, Moronar's Chosen - Flashing Swords, Purrfect Match - Cup of Comfort for Cat Lovers, Seduka - Worlds of Wonder, In the Tomb of the Ancient Goddess - Big Pulp, Soul Scrapbook - Big Pulp, For All the Years She Missed - Burst, April Scabs - Everyday Fiction
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Shade53
Acolyte
Date Joined Jan 2005
Total Posts : 218
| Posted 4/1/2008 1:07 PM (GMT -4) | | I tend not to use amazon for anything. Rather go through my local indy bookstore whenever possible. It'll be interesting to see what happens with this down the road. Seems to me, they're creating a wonderful opportunity for some competition to step up. But, maybe that's just me.
~Sarah Wagner~
Currently Appearing
Moronar's Vessel - Golden Visions Magazine
Pomp & Circumstance - Burst,
Upcoming Publications
Pulling Threads - The Written Word, Enough - Mouth Full of Bullets, Blur of Tiers - Lorelei Signal, Tomb of Setankan - Ruins Metropolis, Trinity - Sounds of the Night, Moronar's Chosen - Flashing Swords, Purrfect Match - Cup of Comfort for Cat Lovers, Seduka - Worlds of Wonder, In the Tomb of the Ancient Goddess - Big Pulp, Soul Scrapbook - Big Pulp, April Scabs - Everyday Fiction
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Shade53
Acolyte
Date Joined Jan 2005
Total Posts : 218
| Posted 4/1/2008 1:52 PM (GMT -4) | | | some clarifications already being made by amazon - found here
backtracking a little bit from my understanding of the original decisions. I haven't heard much good about BookSurge so I would probably be a bit reluctant to go with that option myself but - that's just me and I haven't done much research myself on the matter.
Currently Appearing
Moronar's Vessel - Golden Visions Magazine
Pomp & Circumstance - Burst,
Upcoming Publications
Pulling Threads - The Written Word, Enough - Mouth Full of Bullets, Blur of Tiers - Lorelei Signal, Tomb of Setankan - Ruins Metropolis, Trinity - Sounds of the Night, Moronar's Chosen - Flashing Swords, Purrfect Match - Cup of Comfort for Cat Lovers, Seduka - Worlds of Wonder, In the Tomb of the Ancient Goddess - Big Pulp, Soul Scrapbook - Big Pulp, April Scabs - Everyday Fiction
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erazmus
Master
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4475
| Posted 4/1/2008 3:42 PM (GMT -4) | | von Darkmoor said...
good enough place as any for it - this news should be spread all around everywhere we go. if I didn't actually need amazon to move a few books for FS, I'd stay away from the joint.
But do we? Can B&N.com do as much for us? It has been correctly pointed out that most small press sales come from referals by the authors, publishers and review sites. We can't control what the review sites link to, but we could encourage our authors to link to B&N's site, could do it ourselves.
Will we take a significant hit if we do? do we get many sales from Amazon's "customers who bought this book also bought . . ." listings? Does B&N offer similar referals, or can they be induced too?
Booksurge has a horrible rep for quality-- I've _seen_ books with duplicate pages, upside down sections, overprinted lines, blank pages substituted for printed pages. I have seen a few of these problems from the other pod suppliers as well, but universally I've had bad reports on how booksurge delt with the problems.
I am concerned, to say the least. Amazon could have gone about this differently-- they could have improved services and offered incentives for using their pod to sell books on their web-site. Instead they have chosen an "our way or else" approach which leads me to believe they have no intentions of improving booksurge's performance. I want our readers to be able to find, and buy, our products but I want them to be able to pay a reasonable price and for us to make a reasonable profit, and I don't want them to get stuck with a crappy, substandard copy.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Dutchman Rescue"in Continuum SF #6
www.continuumsciencefiction.com/orders.htm
"An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern" in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises:
www.fantasistent.com/books/anthologies/BASH.php
"Stains" in Tales of the Talisman 3-1 www.zianet.com/hadrosaur/index.html
"Morning Coffee" in Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/morning-coffee-by-michael-d-turner/
"The Jewel Below" in Flashing Swords
flashingswords.sfreader.com/issues/issue8/vol2-iss8-05.htm
"Happy Landings" in Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/happy-landings-by-michael-d-turner/
"Teller of Tales" in Every day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/teller-of-tales-by-michael-d-turner/
Read "Silver Shells" In Every Day Fiction
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von Darkmoor
Small Press Publisher (and Dancer still)
Date Joined Dec 2005
Total Posts : 2951
| Posted 4/1/2008 3:59 PM (GMT -4) | |
erazmus said...
But do we? Can B&N.com do as much for us? It has been correctly pointed out that most small press sales come from referals by the authors, publishers and review sites. We can't control what the review sites link to, but we could encourage our authors to link to B&N's site, could do it ourselves.
Do we? I hesitated over using the word 'need' but defaulted to it, mostly because, at least here in my little corner of the world, most people I know who do buy books do say "Amazon.com" when I inquire as to where the make their purchases. The second place is "Half-price Books." Everybody talks about going to B&N stores, but they're going simply to browse the mags and books and sip coffee in the cafe - not actually buy anthing that isn't edible. Two friends of mine and myself are the only folks I know drawn to B&N like moths to flame - and while I usually find something to get burned on, often times they don't (and I realize that to be simply a monetary thing and through no other discipline of their own).
I believe B&N.com can match Amazon.com's services and benefits for us. Especially if this move propels all the small press publishers of every stripe to B&N.
erazmus said...
Will we take a significant hit if we do? do we get many sales from Amazon's "customers who bought this book also bought . . ." listings? Does B&N offer similar referals, or can they be induced too?
I don't know if they do offer similar . . .yet. I've used B&N - started there years ago, have tapered off a bit in favor of Amazon, but that's usually simply ease. Searches usually generate amazon's results before B&N's for one thing, and that's entirely what the internet is built about - ease of use. more people take the first choice that matches what they're looking for, even if scrolling and taking a further down the list choice would cost them less.
I'm willing to try it. I'll start linking my reviews to B&N instead of Amazon for starters.
erazmus said...
I am concerned, to say the least. Amazon could have gone about this differently-- they could have improved services and offered incentives for using their pod to sell books on their web-site. Instead they have chosen an "our way or else" approach which leads me to believe they have no intentions of improving booksurge's performance. I want our readers to be able to find, and buy, our products but I want them to be able to pay a reasonable price and for us to make a reasonable profit, and I don't want them to get stuck with a crappy, substandard copy.
I totally agree Mike, with your concern about both Amazon's choice and our readers. I'll tell you right now, I won't ever willingly switch to such a subservice product like Booksurge, so what happens to the FSP presence on Amazon might be moot.
~~~~~~~~~~
Jason M. Waltz
Managing Editor, Flashing Swords Press (site soon to come)
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Gustavo
Sage
Date Joined Aug 2007
Total Posts : 1149
| Posted 4/1/2008 6:47 PM (GMT -4) | | Actually, Amazon will probably take booksurge's quality problems and fix them - fast. There's a reason that Amazon is who they are, and that's that they have spectacular customer service, and are always listening to their customers. A few complaints about sub-par books will see it fixed.
I have to admit that I'm one of HvD's example people who immediately answers Amazon if asked where I buy. I live out in the boonies of Argentina most of the time, and yet, I've NEVER had an order not arrive (we're talking hundreds of orders, here). I had ONE instance in which they shipped the wrong stuff, but they corrected it immediately at no cost and let me keep the original shipment!
These people are admirably consumer oriented, and, as such, are going to win the war... I wouldn't advise going against them unless there are pressing business reasons to do so. If they're charging higher commissions, for example, or if they're not meeting your sales numbers... But not otherwise.
Visit my livejournal! http://bondo-ba.livejournal.com/
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erazmus
Master
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4475
| Posted 4/2/2008 6:13 AM (GMT -4) | | Gustavo said...
These people are admirably consumer oriented, and, as such, are going to win the war... I wouldn't advise going against them unless there are pressing business reasons to do so. If they're charging higher commissions, for example, or if they're not meeting your sales numbers... But not otherwise.
Gustavo,
Just because the other guy is obviously going to win doesn't mean you shouldn't fight.
Firstly, if you only fight fights you are sure of winning, you are a bully.
Secondly, no fight is over until you've fought it. Germany was obviously going to own all of Europe in 1942. Smart money was to stay out of it and make nice. Things didn't turn out to be so cut and dried.
Thirdly, there are worse things than losing a fight. Having to look yourself in the mirror everyday after walking away from one you should have fought is one.
I don't like being pushed around. I don't do it to other people and won't tolerate it from anybody. Its also not a smart way to do buisness; even if you get away with it, it bites you in the ass every time. I may lose a few fights, I may lose a lot of them, but I don't ever forget one. There are three hundred million people in my country, less than six million of them buy books regularly. I spend thousands of dollars a year buying books for me to read. If I end up having to buy them from Amazon . . .
well, I have plenty stockpiled.
Mike
Michael D. Turner
"Psyched Up" in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
"Dutchman Rescue"in Continuum SF #6
www.continuumsciencefiction.com/orders.htm
"An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern" in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises:
www.fantasistent.com/books/anthologies/BASH.php
"Stains" in Tales of the Talisman 3-1 www.zianet.com/hadrosaur/index.html
"Morning Coffee" in Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/morning-coffee-by-michael-d-turner/
"The Jewel Below" in Flashing Swords
flashingswords.sfreader.com/issues/issue8/vol2-iss8-05.htm
"Happy Landings" in Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/happy-landings-by-michael-d-turner/
"Teller of Tales" in Every day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/teller-of-tales-by-michael-d-turner/
Read "Silver Shells" In Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/silver-shells-by-michael-d-turner/ | | Back to Top | | |
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crystalwizard
Forum Moderator
Date Joined Nov 2006
Total Posts : 4607
| Posted 4/2/2008 1:53 PM (GMT -4) | | | | |
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Shade53
Acolyte
Date Joined Jan 2005
Total Posts : 218
| Posted 4/2/2008 6:11 PM (GMT -4) | | | Lightning Source chimed in here
And writers Weekly has put together a page with all the info in one spot. Here.
Looks like a lot of the people who could have fought it, aren't going to and that is a bad bad thing, in my opinion anyway.
~ Sarah Wagner~
Currently Appearing
Moronar's Vessel - Golden Visions Magazine
Pomp & Circumstance - Burst,
Upcoming Publications
Pulling Threads - The Written Word, Enough - Mouth Full of Bullets, Blur of Tiers - Lorelei Signal, Tomb of Setankan - Ruins Metropolis, Trinity - Sounds of the Night, Moronar's Chosen - Flashing Swords, Purrfect Match - Cup of Comfort for Cat Lovers, Seduka - Worlds of Wonder, In the Tomb of the Ancient Goddess - Big Pulp, Soul Scrapbook - Big Pulp, April Scabs - Everyday Fiction
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crystalwizard
Forum Moderator
Date Joined Nov 2006
Total Posts : 4607
| Posted 4/2/2008 7:12 PM (GMT -4) | | | | |
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Shade53
Acolyte
Date Joined Jan 2005
Total Posts : 218
| Posted 4/2/2008 7:23 PM (GMT -4) | | True, but why would the customers protest much of any of this? BookSurge's quality not withstanding as I've never been privy to that. The customer is not likely to care about who prints what. At least, I can't figure why the customer is going to care.
~Sarah Wagner~
Currently Appearing
Moronar's Vessel - Golden Visions Magazine
Pomp & Circumstance - Burst,
Upcoming Publications
Pulling Threads - The Written Word, Enough - Mouth Full of Bullets, Blur of Tiers - Lorelei Signal, Tomb of Setankan - Ruins Metropolis, Trinity - Sounds of the Night, Moronar's Chosen - Flashing Swords, Purrfect Match - Cup of Comfort for Cat Lovers, Seduka - Worlds of Wonder, In the Tomb of the Ancient Goddess - Big Pulp, Soul Scrapbook - Big Pulp, April Scabs - Everyday Fiction
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crystalwizard
Forum Moderator
Date Joined Nov 2006
Total Posts : 4607
| Posted 4/2/2008 7:51 PM (GMT -4) | | It's highly visible now and getting more so. I've had people tell me that they aren't going to buy anything from amazon, and others tell me that they aren't going to list any amazon links on their sites/blogs, just because they don't like what amazon is doing. A lot of amazon's customers are authors, but even for those that are simply fans, if the author says 'don't buy your copy here, buy it there', the fan's gonna go buy their copy where the author said. And if that same author also says 'write amazon and tell them how mad you are that they are doing this to me'... You get the idea?
This may go to court. People are now discussing whether Amazon's trying for a monopoly, and mentioning anti-trust laws. | | Back to Top | | |
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Shade53
Acolyte
Date Joined Jan 2005
Total Posts : 218
| Posted 4/2/2008 8:28 PM (GMT -4) | | All I know is that, on the whole, for readers, writers, and small presses, this whole shebang with Amazon is very bad...
I like Angela Hoy's take on it though part of it scares me a little bit:
Angela Hoy said...
According to The Robinson-Patman Act of 1936 (or Anti-Price Discrimination Act), if Amazon forces publishers to offer them a 48% discount, this action may, by default, force publishers to offer all bookstores a 48% discount. Many small publishers simply can't afford to do this. If they sign the Amazon contract and, thus, then have to offer all bookstores a 48% discount, they may go out of business.
I hope the small presses, and everyone who reads or writes small press books, find a way to band together and work out a deal with a competitor or protest loud enough that Amazon quits this ridiculousness.
~ Sarah Wagner~
Currently Appearing
Moronar's Vessel - Golden Visions Magazine
Pomp & Circumstance - Burst,
Upcoming Publications
Pulling Threads - The Written Word, Enough - Mouth Full of Bullets, Blur of Tiers - Lorelei Signal, Tomb of Setankan - Ruins Metropolis, Trinity - Sounds of the Night, Moronar's Chosen - Flashing Swords, Purrfect Match - Cup of Comfort for Cat Lovers, Seduka - Worlds of Wonder, In the Tomb of the Ancient Goddess - Big Pulp, Soul Scrapbook - Big Pulp, April Scabs - Everyday Fiction
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erazmus
Master
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 4475
| Posted 4/3/2008 4:28 AM (GMT -4) | | | | |
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crystalwizard
Forum Moderator
Date Joined Nov 2006
Total Posts : 4607
| Posted 4/3/2008 4:47 AM (GMT -4) | | | | |
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R. L. Copple
Acolyte
Date Joined Mar 2007
Total Posts : 212
| Posted 4/4/2008 2:51 AM (GMT -4) | | Well, so far, my book, which my publisher does go through Lightsource to print it, is still "in stock" and the button to buy it looks active. When I click it, it adds it to my cart. And it says free shipping is available on it. Wondered since it seemed some were thinking that had already happened.
But, like I said, I think there are at least five copies of my book in Amazon's warehouse, which was one of the options they suggested if you didn't want to go through Booksurge. So maybe that's why.
But it should be noted that most publishers offer around 55% to bookstores and distributors as it is. Distributors frequently offer 45-48% to bookstores. That only changes significantly when you're dealing with textbooks and other specialty type books that aren't expected to sell millions and incur more cost in the production. I think there are very few publishers out there that don't already offer better than 48%. The few that do, it might be a problem for them. My small press publisher, using Lightsource, gives a 55% discount as it is. At least on my book. Not sure if that is going to raise prices much on your standard fiction and non-fiction books. I doubt Amazon sells very many textbooks.
Where I think this might hurt them, however, is if enough publishers don't join up. If their book offerings are substantially reduced due to it, that could affect their business enough to force them to change gears. Yet, what some of the people are reporting and what Amazon has said don't always seem to match up.
So, I'll see what happens.
R. L. Copple
blog.rlcopple.com
www.raygunradio.com
www.haruah.com
Infinite Realities available at Amazon.com | | Back to Top | | |
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